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    #76
    Originally posted by 2761377 View Post
    you cannot hang your hat on a wikipedia cite. try harder
    you fucking idiot.

    read the goddamned thread; i've been explaining my ideology the entire time.

    posting the wiki page was a response to marshall's disbelief that what i'm talking about is actually a thing.
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      #77
      Right, it's not anarchy. It's neighbors being neighbors.

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        #78
        that statement is in direct conflict with where you agreed like this:

        Originally posted by marshallnoise View Post
        Nailed it.

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        1989 325is (learner shitbox)
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          #79
          Originally posted by decay View Post
          that statement is in direct conflict with where you agreed like this:
          Wtf? Anarchy is a lawless, government less existence by which every man is for himself. "Nailed it" was referring to the description of this.

          What you cited as anarchy was people rallying to pay a friend's vet bill for their cat. That isn't anarchy. That is neighbors being good neighbors.

          The only thing in common with each other is the fact that government is absent. And anarchy is not merely the absence of government; but chaos due to the absence of government order. Otherwise, anytime a church fed the homeless you could call it an anarchist event.

          Thinking like that is just plain warped.
          Si vis pacem, para bellum.

          New Hawtness: 1995 540i/6 Claptrap
          Defunct too: Cirrusblau m30 Project
          Defunct (sold): Alta Vista

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            #80
            you are *again* ignoring the difference between what anarchism looks like in theory vs in practice, and again, those were anecdotal examples indicative of a larger trend. we & i don't care if we are satisfying what you consider a dictionary definition of anarchism.

            but i'm sick of your constant contrarianism, to the point where you'll contradict yourself just to find something else to disagree with me about, so i think for everyone's benefit it's best we stop.
            past:
            1989 325is (learner shitbox)
            1986 325e (turbo dorito)
            1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
            1985 323i baur
            current:
            1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

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              #81
              Originally posted by marshallnoise View Post
              The socio- thing applied to anarchist has no real meaning though.

              What is anarchist about crowd sourcing funds for veterinarian bills?

              Squatting can be an anarchist act though.

              According to the great Google:
              an·ar·chy
              ˈanərkē/
              noun
              noun: anarchy
              1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
                "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
                synonyms:lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"



                antonyms:government, order

                • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.





              Hey, high five! You can use Google! Do you think that's impressive? If you kids want to play semantics, let's go.


              I didn't start this thread to bash on decay, I started it to get honest, genuine opinions from someone in the movement.

              Stop with the partisan bullshit and the 'gotchas' it's boring.
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                #82
                I've been sitting on the sidelines to this point because it's fun to watch you guys yell at each other.

                But here's the question that I've always had for people that take the viewpoint that no government/anarchism would be better than having our current government:

                Inherently, in the anarchistic system that has been described (take in the cat example from earlier) it appears as though it CAN work as long as all people involved have a similar mindset of benevolence towards all other members of the community. However, what happens when people don't have that benevolence? Or if they disagree on how the community should operate?

                This has always been my issue with complete and total individual freedom, the reality that one person's view of right and wrong and how to operate might run contrary to what another person's views are and that contradiction can't be readily solved on a larger scale.

                I'm not saying the crowd-sourcing idea doesn't work, or that individual communities can't operate outside of a traditional government to get things done (someone mentioned religious institutions that accomplish this largely outside of government), however, how does that translate outside of a small group of people? How do you get people from Alaska to agree with people from Texas when they largely don't share similar interests?

                Beyond that, how do large-scale infrastructures remain intact and maintained? Highways, sewers, gas lines, etc? Essentially, the crowd-sourcing that was described earlier is actually a lot like the taxes that people pay within the current government, people are still banding together to support the entire community, it just happens to be on a much bigger scale than a surgery for a cat.

                So the reality here isn't that there is a disagreement over the need to provide services for a community, it's just how those services are being provided (or lack thereof).

                Seems more like utopianism to me, which has been shown to work on the small scale, but fails when you get outside of a group of like-minded individuals. And I think that's the problem I always see, that the desire for complete freedom and individuality means that it's impossible to manage on a large scale.

                Hopefully that made some sense and adds to this discussion, if not I'll go back to the bench and sit quietly.

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                  #83
                  Z31, you can give me shit for throwing a definition of terms on the page so we can actually have a conversation, but what you can't call it is an argument in semantics when the definition of anarchy being used here is not even remotely related to what anarchy actually is. The gap isn't merely nuance that you can call semantics. We aren't discussing shades of blue here.

                  It's pointless to discuss when you can't even agree on the basic definition of what you are discussing.

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                  Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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                  Defunct too: Cirrusblau m30 Project
                  Defunct (sold): Alta Vista

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by mbonder View Post
                    However, what happens when people don't have that benevolence? Or if they disagree on how the community should operate?
                    within my local community? they're outed by their own actions and shunned, typically. those of us who've lived in small towns don't need explanation on how word gets around.
                    disagreements are handled in the open via discourse that hopefully stays civil.

                    however, how does that translate outside of a small group of people? How do you get people from Alaska to agree with people from Texas when they largely don't share similar interests? Beyond that, how do large-scale infrastructures remain intact and maintained? Highways, sewers, gas lines, etc? Essentially, the crowd-sourcing that was described earlier is actually a lot like the taxes that people pay within the current government, people are still banding together to support the entire community, it just happens to be on a much bigger scale than a surgery for a cat. So the reality here isn't that there is a disagreement over the need to provide services for a community, it's just how those services are being provided (or lack thereof).

                    Seems more like utopianism to me, which has been shown to work on the small scale, but fails when you get outside of a group of like-minded individuals.
                    scalability is an issue with any political model, and you're not at all wrong for pointing out that the ideals involved in social anarchy have a lower limit to community size than... whatever the fuck you want to call what we have now, i'm having trouble coming up with words to describe this mess. it's starting to smell like "fascist capitalism" to me.

                    i think the reasons that posters in this thread have described what the local community has adopted as "not true anarchism" is that in some ways, yes, the community aspect is very similar to what you see anywhere in small-town USA; but adapted in to work within the context of larger cities, in our current socioeconomic climate.

                    i'd go so far as to say that "true anarchism" doesn't really scale beyond the family-unit level. anyone who really wants to live that way needs to go build a cabin in the woods and be good at hunting, fishing, and maintaining a garden, and have a like-minded partner if they don't want to spend the rest of their life fapping.

                    And I think that's the problem I always see, that the desire for complete freedom and individuality means that it's impossible to manage on a large scale.
                    it absolutely does, and this is why i think that a country consisting of smaller and more decentralized communities, even ones that exist within areas that have higher population density, are a good thing.

                    to reiterate; where i live now, this is happening out of necessity, not desire.
                    the police won't prioritize any incident not involving a gun, domestic violence, or danger to/neglect of a child. that's straight from the mouth of the cop i dated.
                    my friend eva is a civil engineer working for EBMUD (the local utility that provides water/power/gas) and she is massively frustrated that you really should use a brita to filter what comes out of the tap.
                    how do we deal with these issues? given the two examples:
                    for security, you watch out for yourself and your neighbors, and if you see some guy walking down the street looking in every car window, you convince him to leave the area.
                    for water, we've got community classes on how to build your own rainwater collection system.
                    hell, if you want to come to my commune house, you'll get fed for free because we have a huge garden growing food (rather than decorative plants) and 4 chickens in the backyard. i make a mean fucking omelette for breakfast or won-ton soup for dinner, yo.

                    anyway, i'm digressing. if i can draw a parallel between anarchism and libertarianism again; i wonder if people might find the idea more palatable if it was described as a further extension of the states'-rights argument, down to the community level.

                    thank you for discussing this with me calmly.
                    past:
                    1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                    1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                    1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                    1985 323i baur
                    current:
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                      #85
                      ^I would like to hear your parallel between anarchism and libertarianism.
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                        #86
                        Originally posted by marshallnoise View Post
                        Z31, you can give me shit for throwing a definition of terms on the page so we can actually have a conversation, but what you can't call it is an argument in semantics when the definition of anarchy being used here is not even remotely related to what anarchy actually is. The gap isn't merely nuance that you can call semantics. We aren't discussing shades of blue here.

                        It's pointless to discuss when you can't even agree on the basic definition of what you are discussing.

                        Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
                        My point was more that you just pulled the first hit from Google vs anything else. And that words usage and meaning change over time.
                        Need parts now? Need them cheap? steve@blunttech.com
                        Chief Sales Officer, Midwest Division—Blunt Tech Industries

                        www.gutenparts.com
                        One stop shopping for NEW, USED and EURO PARTS!

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by z31maniac View Post
                          ^I would like to hear your parallel between anarchism and libertarianism.
                          well, libertarians are fond of the states'-rights argument, and i don't disagree with them on that point.

                          socio-anarchism posits that there could be some good in breaking it down further, to the neighborhood/community level.

                          thoughts?
                          past:
                          1989 325is (learner shitbox)
                          1986 325e (turbo dorito)
                          1991 318ic (5-lug ITB)
                          1985 323i baur
                          current:
                          1995 M3 (suspension, 17x9/255-40, borla)

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                            #88
                            Originally posted by decay View Post
                            well, libertarians are fond of the states'-rights argument, and i don't disagree with them on that point.

                            socio-anarchism posits that there could be some good in breaking it down further, to the neighborhood/community level.

                            thoughts?
                            I'm all for less government. I hate that my company provided insurance is 1400 bucks a month for a family(thank God my wife works for a company that cares about it's employees so we pay 200 for better insurance) because of obongocare. I hate that Seattle basically runs the show as to who gets elected to run and represent the state, they don't represent me and what I believe in at all. I hate the over spending. I hate being told what I can and can't do. I'll be better off by myself.

                            But what happens when groups within the community have different ideas and things get violent, or a skyscraper needs work done to it and no one knows how to fix it? What happens when it needs to be torn down. Or the power grid goes down?

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                              #89
                              I fully support being self sufficient of the local/state/federal government.

                              "When seconds matter, the police are just minutes away."

                              etc.

                              I live on a hundred acres of public land with plenty of deer, wild turkey, and rabbits. I can walk 1/4 mile through the forest and be on the shores of a 50,000 acre lake full of fish, or walk to my backyard and pick as many fresh tomatoes/beans/peppers/herbs as I can eat. I'm very friendly with my neighbors and we all have firearms/ammo and stores of non perishable food.

                              But that doesn't make me an anarchist.

                              Essentially all forms of anarchism are defined by the dissolution of the state and the abolition of private property.

                              I have several issues with this, but simply:

                              1. I'm responsible for helping poor and underserved people many of whom are basically kept alive by medicare/medicaid funding. Lack of federal government would essentially be a death sentence for these people. Unless there is a clear, national plan to keep these people safe, I would not support anarchism. If a national plan is developed, then by definition, it isn't anarchism.

                              2. I have worked hard to provide a stable, peaceful environment, where I can sleep at night knowing my family is safe. The abolition of private property would mean that at any time a group of strangers could come into my home, takeover my property, and I would have no legal recourse. Anarchism states that my possessing a home, a car, a couch, a TV, etc creates a hierarchical society and that ethically my possessions can be taken from me in order to create equality. I do not support this.

                              Now if you want to keep the state, keep private property, and attempt to live self sufficiently in a tight knit community, growing your own food, looking out for each other, while respecting those around you and respecting the law, I fully support that, but that's not really anarchy or socio-anarchy. Social anarchism also believes in the dissolution of the state and lack of private property.

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                                #90
                                OT: I freaking love Chattanooga for all the reasons you listed. One of my favorite places on Earth.
                                Si vis pacem, para bellum.

                                New Hawtness: 1995 540i/6 Claptrap
                                Defunct too: Cirrusblau m30 Project
                                Defunct (sold): Alta Vista

                                79 Bronco SHTF Build

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