Let’s talk about Antifa.

[decay]

you will never hear an argument from me that politicians don't act out of self-interest, so we're in alignment there. my point is that whoever was responsible (i wasn't accusing any particular demographic or locality), it shouldn't have happened and it's one of the factors that gave rise to the sometimes-violent civil rights resistance you mentioned.

on your last point- if our country, at one time, mobilized for war to stop fascism, should we allow it to re-establish itself? i think that's the real question here.

[frankenbeemer]

you will never hear an argument from me that politicians don't act out of self-interest, so we're in alignment there. my point is that whoever was responsible (i wasn't accusing any particular demographic or locality), it shouldn't have happened and it's one of the factors that gave rise to the sometimes-violent civil rights resistance you mentioned.

on your last point- if our country, at one time, mobilized for war to stop fascism, should we allow it to re-establish itself? i think that's the real question here.

Yes we did take up arms against fascism in self defense, but the remedies for discrimination and totalitarianism are enshrined in our law. We face an internal not external threat. If the republicans in Berkeley invite Ben Shapiro to speak they have a right to hear him and accept or reject his ideas on their merits. You have a right to present your opposing ideas to be equally considered.

Recently an Australian who left Antifa after 4 years had this to say:

"I got radicalised in Sydney. I was originally concerned about Western intervention in Syria. Radical left wing people dominated rallies and I started to associate with them more. My so-called ‘normal’ friends drifted away…

I came to believe that war was a symptom of bigger systems at play in society and they were the real enemy, like white supremacy and patriarchy. Antifa believe these systems need to be smashed through a process of ‘de-platforming’ to save the world. People who don’t necessarily agree on everything are united to attack their common enemy — anyone in the right wing of politics…

I read that Antifa in the US is training people to shoot and punch. It’s the same here. Antifa in Sydney are doing martial arts to, as they would put it, ‘fight the Nazis’. It’s a paramilitary mindset.

It’s more dangerous than ISIS…

The radical left of Antifa presents itself as being about compassion and empathy; it’s a Trojan horse. All conversations are about entitlement and rights, not responsibility. When these people talk about freedom, they really mean freedom from responsibility."

Link: https://hotair.com/archives/2017/10/...ing-us-dumber/


Some NPR discussion (haven't listened to it yet) https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-...a-origin-story

[decay]

Yes we did take up arms against fascism in self defense

well- we had clear argument of self-defense to take action in the pacific theatre. i'd like to think that heading to europe was more of a proactive.

but the remedies for discrimination and totalitarianism are enshrined in our law. We face an internal not external threat.

the military's enlistment oath includes the phrase "against all enemies, foreign and domestic". which is probably why my former Marine buddy likes to coordinate on our local actions.

If the republicans in Berkeley invite Ben Shapiro to speak they have a right to hear him and accept or reject his ideas on their merits. You have a right to present your opposing ideas to be equally considered.

all right, let's talk about the berkeley events. that did not go down as peacefully as SF did the day before. (i didn't get hit or hit anyone.) commenters in this thread are right that there is an analogy to draw when comparing "neo-nazi thugs" on the extreme right and "black bloc" on the extreme left; what i'm trying to say is that the vast majority of people who call themselves antifa want a non-violent discussion to happen, as you're describing. we just have very strong objections to racist/nationalist ideals and most of us are of the personality type to make ourselves heard rather than just watching it happen.

Recently an Australian who left Antifa after 4 years had this to say:
"I came to believe that war was a symptom of bigger systems at play in society and they were the real enemy, like white supremacy and patriarchy. Antifa believe these systems need to be smashed through a process of ‘de-platforming’ to save the world. People who don’t necessarily agree on everything are united to attack their common enemy — anyone in the right wing of politics…

I read that Antifa in the US is training people to shoot and punch. It’s the same here. Antifa in Sydney are doing martial arts to, as they would put it, ‘fight the Nazis’. It’s a paramilitary mindset.

It’s more dangerous than ISIS…

The radical left of Antifa presents itself as being about compassion and empathy; it’s a Trojan horse. All conversations are about entitlement and rights, not responsibility. When these people talk about freedom, they really mean freedom from responsibility."

that, on the face of it, smells like a smear piece to me.

1. i agree with the right in a lot of places. i mean shit- i follow john mccain on facebook, and not just so i have someone to shout at.

2. i already know how to shoot and fight, thanks to the army. i have not heard of any local organized events training people to do that- and oakland, where i lived until a few months ago, could be accurately described as the core resistance city.

3. more dangerous than IS? are you fucking kidding me? how about we ask the kurds and yazidis who they're more worried about? i doubt antifa's even on their radar.

Some NPR discussion (haven't listened to it yet) https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-...a-origin-story

i'll check this out tonight or tomorrow. we can discuss when we've both had a listen.

[frankenbeemer]

Agreed, that first piece is weak on tangible facts, and has overtones of disgruntled apostate. It left me wondering if he had an awakening or was kicked out. We can discard that one if you want.

There's some interesting dialogue in NPR's take.

[frankenbeemer]

I meant to address this:

well- we had clear argument of self-defense to take action in the pacific theatre. i'd like to think that heading to europe was more of a proactive.

I don't believe we were proactive. While Roosevelt perceived the threat, he, like Wilson in WW1, was aware that the US populace (in the depths of economic depression) remained isolationist. He was in no position to declare war on Germany. The electorate hadn't the will and the military hadn't the means. Other than lend lease (which itself was controversial) there was little he could do.

After Pearl Harbor isolationism was replaced with resolve for war against Japan. Roosevelt correctly assumed that to prevail, we must first ensure the survival of Brittain, but would the people support it? Hitler's unexpected declaration of war against the United States freed Roosvelt to pursue that course. Not what I would call proactive. Things could have been much different.

[decay]

fair point on that- i was just saying that japan actually struck us, while i would characterize hitler’s declaration of war as more like sabre-rattling without the ability to project force. there is no way he could have mobilized an invasionary force to land on the east coast while also occupying most of europe and fighting russia on the eastern front. and i think he knew that.

so maybe “talk shit, get hit” is what i should revise my statement to? which brings us back to whether or not it’s okay to punch a nazi. :)

[mrsleeve]

This thread has given me a headache just trying to follow the gross lack of historical knowledge being passed off as justification of argument/p.o.v. to if then guilt by (logical fallacy ) association. To the pure liberal branded fascist tendencies mascrading as peacekeepers all while doing nothing but stirring the pot and continuing to drive tensions to heights not seen in 60 years

[decay]

This thread has given me a headache just trying to follow the gross lack of historical knowledge being passed off as justification of argument/p.o.v. to if then guilt by (logical fallacy ) association. To the pure liberal branded fascist tendencies mascrading as peacekeepers all while doing nothing but stirring the pot and continuing to drive tensions to heights not seen in 60 years

military service in my family goes back 3 generations before me. "gross lack of historical knowledge" is on your end- it's been passed down to me by people who were actually there. disagree with me being a liberal if you want, but accusations of ignorance and logical fallacy are baseless, as evidenced by your usual lack of a supporting argument. at least hoofandmouth tried to do that.

or you could just avoid the headache by not participating.

[frankenbeemer]

military service in my family goes back 3 generations before me. "gross lack of historical knowledge" is on your end- it's been passed down to me by people who were actually there. disagree with me being a liberal if you want, but accusations of ignorance and logical fallacy are baseless, as evidenced by your usual lack of a supporting argument. at least hoofandmouth tried to do that.

or you could just avoid the headache by not participating.

You're asserting the oral history of your ancestors is more comprehensive than the vast canon of historical literature? I doubt you could best sleeve in a closed book history exam.

I'll get some thoughts together on the NPR thing and post them later.

[decay]

I doubt you could best sleeve in a closed book history exam.

disagree on that, since his arguments can consistently be summed up as "you're wrong and i'm not going to say why". you, on the other hand, provide reasons that lead to further discussion and me reconsidering my own viewpoints and verbage.

[LowR3V'in]

great points decay you're very good at explaining your groups views.
why don't you guys be heroes instead of hippys or whatever.

You're fighting the power i'm not talking down on your group but i don't hear much about antifa.
it just seems like another collage age pack of homeless people creating riots.
Brain washed by bay-area schools. i know it's NOT. but it's just what it LOOKS like.

just take it to the next level. let your voices be heard for real. be heroes and actually stop the man. you know what i'm talking about. everyone needs heroes, decay. You can be one. think about it. talk to the leader or whatever you call him if there even is one? Show everyone the power of your origination. wash away white males and hate groups


also i dont' really mean anything crazy and i'm just saying this off cuff nothing real thoughtful.
and not advocating for terrorists i'm against all forms of violence.

[decay]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-supremacist-rallies-tennessee_us_59f48222e4b07fdc5fbe7286

how'd we do on that one?

no violence.

shut down the assholes with bats, helmets, and shields arguing for a "white ethnostate" and the rest got their voice.

that's how it should work, right?

[LowR3V'in]

it looks like they're just angry and making fun of the black lives matter/antifa by doing the same thing you guys are doing just putting "white" instead of black.
non of that effects me at all. try harder. be a hero. wash away the scum.
get more angry. be what you believe is justice itself. you want to.

[decay]

ignoring the bait.

[lambo]

That looks totally acceptable to me. However I’d give the police most of the props for that. I wouldn’t have wanted to see what would have happened if both sides were directly interacting with eachother versus being separated by fences, a street, and multiple police officers. I’m not saying either side would swing first I’m just saying something would have certainly happened.