Just thought I'd say hello

[Max S]

Hi everyone!

I just thought I'd make a post to briefly explain why I'm here, why I'm not very active and what I'm planning.

I plan on buying my own E30 in about 1 to 1.5 years, depending on how fast I get the necessary funds (and space).
I spend the time until then making plans for the car-to-come, learn about the E30 and get a connection to the community.
Also, since I plan on buying (more or less) a shell and turn it into my personal perfect E30, I'm also collecting some inspiration/some ideas that might influence the current concept I worked out.
I came to this place instead of a German one just because this place seemed bigger and friendlier than the German Forums.
Side note, are there any other Germans here?
I already wanted to buy an E30 once, but so far I just lacked the space and money needed.

So...
All in all, I hope you guys don't mind me looking around, maybe asking a question or two, despite me currently being BMW-less :(

Max

[ELVA164]

Hey, welcome! There are a couple other German members for sure. Good idea learning about the car, then starting to work on it. That can save you time and confusion later :)

[Restoman]

Welcome to the forum! There are so many good projects on here you might have to have a few different cars just so you can have a few flavors.

I came to this place instead of a German one just because this place seemed bigger and friendlier than the German Forums.

What's their web address, I'm curious.

[Max S]

Welcome to the forum! There are so many good projects on here you might have to have a few different cars just so you can have a few flavors.

I actually got two different plans at the moment, but I can only afford one new (to me) car at a time :|
So I got to decide on a favorite, save up and put that into reality.
Right now the plan (summed up) is buying a two-door sedan (German Forum-members tend to get a bit upset if you call it a coupe), restore it (I don't want to modify "grandpa's darling", those deserve to be preserved), put in a modern engine (probably S54, which would be quite close to the power-limit in Germany), modern gearbox, some comfort-bits (power steering, ABS, maybe even A/C) and make the car loose some weight.
Not in the "stripped interior racecar"-way, but more like BMW's E46 M3 CSL or Porsche's GT3/GT2 RS.
Lighter and sporty-er, but not going crazy with it.
Essentially, it's a resto-mod supposed to become my personal perfect BMW.
And yes, I kinda like the idea of the M3's wider fenders on the not-really-M3 :devil:
I know it's a big plan, but when I started restoring my current car I could barely change tires and spark-plugs and learned along the way, so why not do that some more.

What's their web address, I'm curious.

I found two forums via Facebook, E30-Army and E30-Talk.
I joined there before registering at the Forum.
In one Forum, I explained my plan (Buying, restoring and "modernizing") and E30 and got made fun of, essentially.
In the other one, I went and asked a question about getting a modern gearbox into an E30, to match a modern engine.
Same result, to the point of an admin disabling the comment-function because there was nothing productive coming out of that.
And with that welcome, being seen as a (at times stupid/naive dreamer/child) I didn't even bother registering in the actual forums.
Instead, I found this place which seemed a lot friendlier.
I might go back to E30-Talk (because it's the largest one) once I actually have one, since that seems to be a "condition" to be accepted there.
That forum can be found at http://e30-talk.de

Max

[LateFan]

...(Buying, restoring and "modernizing") an E30...

That's what everyone here does!

Welcome and good luck.


<EDIT>....there's a "power limit" in Germany? What about all those insane AMGs and 911 turbos out there? Is it based on a percentage of the original power rating when new?

[Max S]

That's what everyone here does!

Yeah, I know.
Kind of a loose description.
But the plan isn't set in stone yet, so I didn't want to give specifics I'm not going to live up to.
And I'm not going to do something really spectacular, because that's either going to be illegal (like an E60's V10) or just way too complicated for a first-time BMW-owner.

....there's a "power limit" in Germany? What about all those insane AMGs and 911 turbos out there? Is it based on a percentage of the original power rating when new?

With some additional modifications (brakes, tires, etc) you can get 1.4x the power of the most powerful stock version registered/approved.
In the E30, that's about 330hp if you're lucky, much less if you're unlucky (it's not clear if the M3 counts as a 3-series or not).
Above that you need certificates over noise, speed, braking and chassis-stiffness which cost a couple of thousand Euros, IF you get them.
Those exist for 400 and even 500hp in the E30, but they're scarce and getting a copy comes expensive.*
With those certificates you can apply to have an up to 500HP-E30 registered, however, even if you follow all rules and get all the paperwork it's still up to the TÜV-engineer to say yes or no.
Also, the paperwork might dictate a certain tire-width for a certain horsepower, but that tire-with is illegal for your car if you run stock bodywork and don't want to pay a coachbuilder to fabricate new metal for your car (because most aftermarket overfenders are illegal, and sometimes metal is required rather than something bolted on).
AND, any allowed modification can be disallowed at the TÜV-inspection every two years.
The "sore point" is that, if you get in an accident and the police decides that your modification is to blame, the TÜV-engineer who allowed it is PERSONALLY responsible and has to explain why he allowed it.
To avoid that, TÜV-engineers tend to be VERY conservative with what they allow, going (at times MUCH) stricter than the laws actually are.
Sometimes project-cars get sent/trailered across the country if there's an engineer more likely to allow a certain modification.
AMG counts as a manufacturer (being part of Mercedes), so they have to get their cars approved a whole different way compared to a private person.

I could write more about the limitations and hurdles set for (or rather against) road-legal tuning in Germany (like commonly done suspension-tests at traffic-stops that are absolutely unrealistic), but this is enough for the question.

*Some people try to "cheat" by turbocharging their E30s, get it approved with very low boost-pressure and then dial it up.
Problem: Run into a traffic-check, have the cops get suspicious, and they can dyno your car without giving you a chance to alter anything.
If your car is too powerful, you get into costly trouble.

Max

[Vincent Brick]

^^^ Holy shit. Very interesting stuff. I knew it was difficult to legally modify your car there, but not the specifics as you laid out. Very enlightening, makes me feel better about what we have to put up with in California. Thank you for sharing.

[Stanley Rockafella]

Wow, that's some insightful info!
thanks for the clarification Max!

[flyboyx]

hi gai!

[Max S]

^^^ Holy shit. Very interesting stuff. I knew it was difficult to legally modify your car there, but not the specifics as you laid out. Very enlightening, makes me feel better about what we have to put up with in California. Thank you for sharing.

Wow, that's some insightful info!
thanks for the clarification Max!

I barely scraped the surface :|
There's a lot more "obstacles" set up by German law, but since you guys don't have to deal with that I didn't want to annoy you guys with it.
(Side note, I still envy Americans for the tiny license-plates).

As I slowly put a plan together the cost goes in a direction I do not like, so I might "stick around" reading here with a BMW-free garage for at least a year before I have anything worth showing to present.

Max

P.S.:
I considered putting my current plan in here for input/advice, but I'm not sure if that's even wanted by the mods/admins, since, for now, it's largely dreaming/"bouncing ideas back and forth", and not something I can say I'm 100% definitely doing.

[jpod999]

Power limit in Germany?

[Max S]

Power limit in Germany?

There is one, but it depends on the car and what paperwork you can present.
Usually, you can get a car registered with 1.4x the power of the most powerful engine offered in the chassis of yours.
That means, if the TÜV engineer, makes no difference between 3series and M3, you can take a 316, swap the engine (and brakes, and tires, etc), and get about 330hp registered.
For more, you need a certificate proving the stiffness of the chassis.
Those exist for 400 and even 500hp, although the latter one is kind of a lost treasure since those who have it don't like copying it.
Getting that certificate made new costs a few thousand Euros, so a few (at most) hundred for a copy is fine.
With that, you can present your modified E30 and have additional tests done (noise, brakes, speed, speedometer-accuracy, emissions), and apply for your modifications to be added to the car's documentation, making them road legal.
If you're unlucky, you blew a few hundred to thousand Euros on tests and certificates only for the TÜV-engineer to still deny approving your modifications.

Those approvals, like ANY changes (aftermarket wheels, lights, steering wheels) can be removed from the documentation every two years, if you're unlucky, needing you to present the car without the disapproved modification to remain road legal.

The German TÜV has very little experience with engine-swaps, especially outside the VW Golf-Plattform, so you might have to travel across the country to find a TÜV-engineer willing to even properly check an engine-swap.

And then, of course, the needed modifications (brakes, wheels, suspension) all have to be certified for your car as well.

That's why engine-swaps are very rare on road-legal cars in Germany.



It's a bit easier in other fields.
Very few (very expensive) parts have a certificate that allows you to just install it and drive around without specific approval.
But if the part doesn't have that, things get expensive, and/or very limited.
If a rear light doesn't have an "E"-mark on it it's not road legal.
You can get your specific one legalized, for a set of post-facelift E30 rear lights the needed certificate costs about 6.000 Euros.
And that's not guaranteeing approval, that's just giving you a chance.
Motorbike-lights (for, say, LEDs on an E30) are a gray area.
Yes they exist in road-legal versions (about 500€ a piece), but you have to find a really friendly TÜV-engineer to overlook that their road-legal certifitcate says "motorbike" and not "car".

If your suspension is legal, but only for wheels up to 16", don't even try rolling up to the TÜV-check on 17 inch wheels.
They might be legal for the E30, but if they're not legal for an E30 with that specific suspension (and you don't have a few thousand Euros to get a chance) you don't get to have them approved.

All that shows why what we call "FFF-tuning" (Folie, Fahrwerk, Fertig/Wrap, Suspension, done) is so popular.
Because it's easy to get approved.


The problem is that, A, the TÜV is a private company, aimed at making a profit, and B, despite any certificate (or lack thereof), in the end it's the TÜV-engineers personal decision.
He can chose to approve something without certification, he can not approve something that has all documents needed, or he can undo an approval done 2 (or 20) years ago.

I think this sums it up quite alright.
If you want big power in Germany without doing something illegal, buy a trailer for your car.

Max

P.S.:
My current plan is going to get me an E30 with around 350hp, maybe a little more.
So I need one of those pretty (and pretty expensive) little chassis-stiffness-certificates, which I'm not even sure exists for all E30-versions.

[jpod999]

Wow, that’s more intense than here in California. Here we have to go through many steps to get engine swaps legalized but not to that extreme.

[Max S]

Small change of plan.
I "split up" my ideas into two concepts, not sure which one I'll do (first).
I decided to post them here after all (summarized a bit), to "keep track" and maybe get some input.
After all, literally anyone here has more experience with E30s than mere.

Concept 1
E30 Touring
Dark blue (think Alpina, or the current Civic TypeR)
S54 (played with using the M5's V8 for a while, but it's too expensive and too difficult to swap. Also, I quite like the high-revving character).
Manual Gearbox (5 or 6 speed, not sure).
AlphaN or CSL Airbox
Carbon fiber fenders or hood to balance out the engine a bit
LED Headlights
Black or red rear lights
At most two exhaust-tips, 4 is too "suspicious" and doesn't really fit the car
(Partial) Leather interior
Sports seats (non-BMW) for the front
A/C
Big brakes, sports-suspension
ABS
Power Steering
Sound-System
Really liking the idea of M3-flares on a Touring, gotta consult a coachbuilder about that
Cruise control (has anyone ever made that work on an E30 with a modern engine?)
Essentially a sporty car with a boot and 4 seats, so it's somewhat practical

Concept 2
E30 2-door sedan
S54
Manual Gearbox
Some modifications, but no forced induction (camshafts, intake).
Rear seat delete
Full or half cage
Buckets for the front seats
4-point harnesses
M3 Fender flares
Radio delete
Big brakes, sports-suspension
ABS
Power Steering
Carbon fiber or glass fiber bodyparts for weight reduction
Plastic "slider" windows rather than glass
Headlight-intake
My original, but no longer favorite concept, basically an E30-version of the E46 M3 CSL. Lightweight, but not going crazy with stripping it.

Italic means I'm not sure yet, blue means I have to figure out if that'd be road-legal in Germany.
I want a car I can drive on the road (and even right into a police check) with no problems, not a trailer-queen.

Both concepts have in common that they're manuals (I don't really like automatics, I want to be in control), and that they feature some modern bits in the old "shell", which comes from me having an interest in the (in Germany VERY rare) "resto-mod"-conversions.

I'm probably going to do Concept 1 first.
As far as I could calculate it comes a lot cheaper, and (currently) I like the idea of a (very fast) E30 Touring with a modern drivetrain (and some comfort-features) a bit more than the lightweight almost-race car.

I'd like to "start yesterday", but for two reasons I have to wait.
First of all, I'm currently taking up a garage-space at my parent's house with my Mazda MX5 (Miata for you guys) in their garage, and my daily is in the driveway.
I can't stick a third car in there, much less one that needs a garage and space to be restored.
Secondly, my university has me move 2x in one year, beginning next year.
Neither place has a garage (or even a parking-spot), and I don't know where I'll move after that, so I chose not to buy the E30 until it's accommodation is figured out.
So I got some time to kill, which I do (partly) by learning about the E30 and defining my concept(s).
I can't do two at once, so now I got a few months to chose and figure it out.

Max

P.S.:
The additional funding from no longer being a student also helps, of course
With both concepts I have to calculate a few hundred (if not thousand) Euros for the TÜV and various documents they will want, and I also am too much of a perfectionist to do bodywork (rust repair, flares) or the painting myself, so I'll pay someone for those two things.

[Max S]

Can't wait to start

Old status

Small change of plan.
Concept 1
E30 Touring
Dark blue (think Alpina, or the current Civic TypeR)
S54 (played with using the M5's V8 for a while, but it's too expensive and too difficult to swap. Also, I quite like the high-revving character).
Manual Gearbox (5 or 6 speed, not sure).
AlphaN or CSL Airbox
Carbon fiber fenders or hood to balance out the engine a bit
LED Headlights
Black or red rear lights
At most two exhaust-tips, 4 is too "suspicious" and doesn't really fit the car
(Partial) Leather interior
Sports seats (non-BMW) for the front
A/C
Big brakes, sports-suspension
ABS
Power Steering
Sound-System
Really liking the idea of M3-flares on a Touring, gotta consult a coachbuilder about that
Cruise control (has anyone ever made that work on an E30 with a modern engine?)

Current status:

• E30 Touring
• M3-Fenders
• MTech Bumpers
  I heard the TÜV doesn't like it when it's not the whole kit, might also go for Alpina-ones depending on what's avaliable
• Dark blue
  (think Alpina, or the current Civic TypeR)
• S54
• Manual Gearbox
  Probably 5-speed, although 6-speed keeps being tempting for longer drives (reducing rpm).
• CSL Airbox
• Carbon fiber fenders or hood
• LED Headlights
• Black or red rear lights
• 2 Exhaust-tips
  New laws were just passed, further limiting noise, so I got to figure that out
• Partial leather interior
• Airbag-less steering-wheel
  Means I got to find a Touring that was delivered without one, otherwise it's illegal.
• Sports seats for the front
  Think in the Recaro Sportster-Direction
• Auxiliary Gauges (in place of the radio and/or in the center vents)
• Back-up camera
• A/C
• 5-lug conversion
• Big brakes
  Probably bigger/better than needed
• Sports-suspension
• 17" Wheels
  Alpina or OZ
• ABS
• Power Steering
• Cruise Control
  If that works with the modern drivetrain
• Shift Light
  Don't know how, yet, it should look integrated.
• Flat-bottom customized steering wheel
  Has anyone done that with an E30?

Those are the major bits that might be interesting to some.
If there's something I want to do you know won't work please tell me, the same counts for the italic bits where I don't know how/if it can be done.
The car will be absolutely daily driveable (at least in summer), which is why I ditched ideas like the AlphaN-intake and decided to go with an A/C (for hot days) and a rear camera (for parking in tight spaces).
It's also what made me pick the touring-concept, since it has a bit more practicality and comfort (while it should still be pretty quick).
I have the time and financial means to go and buy a touring right now to strip it down (the actual build with start with a restored shell), but I can't clog up my parents' garage with two project cars so the E30 will have to wait (at least) a few months.
Where I can leave "completed" cars while I'm moving back and forth is figured out, but still, only get one project-car-spot at my parents' place.
Despite the waiting-period ahead, I'm already getting excited for my E30-project :firehop:

Max

P.S.:
I know what many of you might think, that I'm just some kid with a big imagination, but this is far from some "rough idea", so if you got doubts just bookmark this and wait a little, I will definitely deliver on it.
:thankyou: