So... can BMWs be made to use E85?

[uflnuceng]

I have been getting a hard-on for this lately... we need to find a way to start growing our own fuel. I use to be very against ethanol because of corn lobbyists making money and I had a thought it was responsible for carbon buildup in engines.... but now that I am a bit more educated we have a fuel that:

1) grows back every year
2) is environmentally friendly (even hippie's love it because the amount of carbon produced by burning ethanol is essentially the same as if the corn were allowed to decay naturally)
3) keeps our greenbacks right here in the good-ole USA
4) is 105 octane :shock:

Unfortunately I don't our BMWs (new or old) can run them because of emissions reasons. Things like the fuel injectors would be injecting for gas at a lower octane fuel and maybe the spark wouldn't be long enough in duration to burn all of the ethanol... but isn't this just an ECU programming issue? Granted any reprogramming of an engine that isn't a Flex Fuel engine like the ones GM has been making for years would basically mean you would have to reprogram if you drove away from the scarce E85 pump stations, but man... for $0.75 to $1.00 cheaper than regular gas prices, let alone premium... I'd do it.

Comments, suggestions?

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[RainMan]

Yay, take away our food supply for millions of automobiles. . .Will just drive up corn prices meaning people will complain about food prices, which will raise the income level of living at the poverty line. Poor people don't need to worry about gasoline as much as food.

EDIT: It is a good idea, and I just hope scientists are working on corn DNA to make better corn (meaning more corn can be grown using the same amount of land).

[bimmerphile]

get an M21D24 and use the conversion from www.greasecar.com

[Erick]

get an M21D24 and use the conversion from www.greasecar.com

Not a half bad idea. Just out of pure curiosity I'm going to look into it.... see if the cost of an engine swap + the conversion would be worth the gas savings.

With gas costs going up to $4 this summer, I'd love to have a daily that could save up some gas like that.

- Erick

[uflnuceng]

Yay, take away our food supply for millions of automobiles. . .Will just drive up corn prices meaning people will complain about food prices, which will raise the income level of living at the poverty line. Poor people don't need to worry about gasoline as much as food.

EDIT: It is a good idea, and I just hope scientists are working on corn DNA to make better corn (meaning more corn can be grown using the same amount of land).

Millions upon millions of acres of farmland is subsidized by our tax dollars so that farmers DON'T plant crops. We actually have a food surplus in this country as tons of food every day goes to waste (or can't you tell by the obese mother fuckers walking around everywhere suffocating under their own fat).

Don't get me started on the "poor and helpless"... they need to get a fucking job.

[uflnuceng]

get an M21D24 and use the conversion from www.greasecar.com

Seen that... I'm not looking to go foraging behind restaurants for their waste oil, although its a good idea for people who want to do that. I like a solution where I can still go to the pump and gives me the performance of a gas engine, as opposed to the peanut smelling goodness of pseudo-diesel.

[Macktheknife]

get an M21D24 and use the conversion from www.greasecar.com

I feel like a retard. The engine code designates between Diesel (D) and Benzin (B)... haha

[uflnuceng]

So... no answer to my original question... would it be possible to say put a 325i on a dyno and tweak the ECU chip till it can run on E85 with similar emission properties, or should we all just get classic car plates and not have to worry about emissions at all (but only be able to drive our cars 1 day a week... thats how Pennsylvania does it).

[Dave]

Jared,

Ethanol is actually an energy loser right now - costs more in energy to produce than it produces. If they can figure out how to get around that, its a good option.

The greasecar and biodiesel options suffer from some cold weather issues - which are lengthy to explain. And for now, biodiesel suffers the same problem as ethanol - more expensive to produce than the market will bear - it is subsidized to some extent as well.

There is a compnay near me that refines used restaurant grease into biodiesel. The exhaust from the car smells like French Fries.

[BIG$COTT]

[QUOTE=RainMan]Yay, take away our food supply for millions of automobiles. . .Will just drive up corn prices meaning people will complain about food prices, which will raise the income level of living at the poverty line. Poor people don't need to worry about gasoline as much as food.
QUOTE]

thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. remember supply and demand? econ 101?? the fact that petroleum is a non-renewable resource kinda effects the curve. honestly... you are worried about raising the price of corn??? read a book already.

[JRowe]

I was curious about ethanol as an alternative to gas for the same reasons. I did a little research and found a few problems with its use.

1. Cost - it's expensive to produce and the only reason it is now used is due to subsidies. Not a viable alternative from a cost basis.
2. Due to the subsidies, corn is used to produce it. That's about as backwards as you can be. For example, sugar beets or sugar cane will produce multiple times more ethanol per acre than corn (sugars = energy), but we use corn.
3. Ability to produce enough to replace gas is extremely limited. We have millions of barrels of oil that basically just needed to be pumped and refined. In other words, a huge supply. It would take more than our country's ability to produce ethanol to meet the demand.

I was highly optimistic about it at one point. I still am. It can, at least in a limited degree, serve to lower the demand for oil. Perhaps technology and common sense can combine some day to make it a reality.

[Erick]

Since we're on the sugar cane subject, Brazil had a phase of trying out sugar cane based fuel. It was a huge gamble but it didnt really pay off. About 30% of the cars today are driven by such, but one fuel tank requires a worker's full day of labor, and you cannot fuel a country like that.

[nando]

Sorry, it's not going to solve our problems.

It's a nice sounding idea, but unfortunately the amount of petroleum required to harvest all that corn, ship it all over the country (so much for saving fuel, doh!), and the amount of land and resources required pushes it into the fringe. It will never make up more than a few % of our energy needs (which are rapidly growing). It still produces hydrocarbons, so it won't help much with the environment either.


Our biggest problem right now is not oil supply, but refining and exploring capacity.. there's PLENTY of oil, we won't run out within our lifetimes, but we don't have the resources neccesary to extract and refine it in the quantities we need. Expect $4 a gallon gas to become the norm before long (and don't bitch, I hate winers). Our other big problem is hydrocarbon emissions, which is not going to go away by simply switching to another type of fuel like ethanol.

[Brew]

Service Bulletin from BMW

SUBJECT
Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles


MODEL
All with gasoline engines


SITUATION
Fuel blends containing a high percentage (above 10%) of alcohol, mainly ethanol, are becoming more commercially available. Customers inquire about the possibility of using alcohol fuels (e.g. E85) in BMW vehicles.

INFORMATION
Fuels containing up to and including 10% of ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) or 3% methanol plus an equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.

Although, usage of such alcohol fuel blends may result in drivability, starting, and stalling problems due to reduced volatility and lower energy content of the fuel. Those drivability problems may be especially evident under certain environmental conditions, such as: high or low ambient temperatures and high altitude.

Only specially adapted vehicles (FFV - Flexible Fuel Vehicles) can run on high alcohol fuel blends. BMW, for the various technical and environmental reasons explained below, does not offer FFV models.

Usage of E85, or any other high alcohol content blend (e.g. E30) in BMW vehicles, will cause various drivability complaints (cold start problems, stalling, reduced performance, poor fuel economy, etc.), may cause excessive emissions, and may cause irreversible damage to engine, emission control and fuel delivery systems due to incompatibility of materials with alcohols.

General Notes Regarding E85 Fuel.

E85 fuel contains 85% (by volume) of ethanol and 15% of gasoline. Ethanol can be produced chemically from ethylene or biologically from grains, agricultural wastes, or any organic material containing starch or sugar. In the US, ethanol is mainly produced from corn and is classified as a renewable fuel.

Similar to gasoline, ethanol contains hydrogen and carbon; with additional oxygen molecules build into its chemical chain. This chemical structure makes ethanol's burning process slightly cleaner compared to the gasoline (lower tailpipe emissions).

On the other hand, due to lower carbon content, ethanol provides 27% less energy (for identical volume) then gasoline, resulting in the reduced fuel economy of E85 vehicles (approximately 22% higher consumption). Increased fuel consumption requires the appropriately enlarged fuel tank capacities (usually 30% increase), and the specific DME calibrations for the E85 lower Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (10 compared to 14.7 for gasoline engines).

E85 fuel volatility is typically lower then gasoline (RVP 6-10 psi, compared to 8-15 psi for gasoline). Lower fuel volatility will reduce vehicle evaporative emissions, but it may cause cold starting problems especially with lower ambient temperatures.

Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Certain materials, commonly used with gasoline are totally incompatible with alcohols. When these materials come in contact with ethanol, they may dissolve in the fuel, which may damage engine components and may result in poor vehicle drivability.

Some metals (e.g. zinc, brass, lead, aluminum) become degraded by long exposure to ethanol fuel blends. Also, some nonmetallic materials used in automotive industry such as: natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), polyamides, methyl-methacrylate plastics, and certain thermo & thermoset plastics degrade when in contact with fuel ethanol.

In order to safely and effectively operate a motor vehicle running on E85, the vehicle must be compatible with alcohol use. Some manufacturers have developed vehicles called FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle) that can operate on any blend of ethanol and gasoline (from 0% ethanol and 100% gasoline, up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline). Ethanol FFVs are similar to gasoline vehicles, with main differences in materials used in fuel management and delivery systems, and DME control module calibrations. In some cases, also E85 vehicles require special lubricating oils.

Aftermarket conversions of gasoline-powered vehicles to ethanol-fueled vehicles, although possible, are not recommended due to internal materials and DME software incompatibility, as well, as the high costs of conversion.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Components damage/malfunctions, or any drivability problems caused by use of fuels containing more then 10% ethanol (or other oxygenates with more then 2.8% oxygen by weight) will not be covered under BMW warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.

[NC325iC]

so basically e85 would reduce fuel efficiency, and i heard its more expensive than gass anyway