ZF output flange question

[rbartongrimley]

I am using a s50 and ZF transmission (assuming it is a ZF-310) from a 1995 M3 for my swap. I bought the revshift swap guibo but just realized that I have the wrong output flange on my transmission (it does not have the grooves in it to allow nut clearance). If I decided to instead go with a drive shaft from a later model M3 or 328i, will I run into the same problem? Do I have to change the output flange on the transmission either way?

Any help would be great. Thanks.

[SwiftE30]

i had this exact problem. i PM'd revshift and this is what i got.

Yeah, The owner has a 97 M3 and it has the "good" one. It could be one of those weird situations though.

you could just grind out the one that you have. Or take it to a machine shop.
Or...for a price you can ship it to us and we will machine it for you.

Hmm, thats really odd. This is the same transmission and engine that came out of a 97 m3. According to original owner it is all original.

I can see the difference now though. That is going to be a pain to go pull from a junk yard.

It is possible a 97 m3 could have this piece? one of those "wierd situations" type things.

I see now,

It looks like you have a ZF trans from a 4 cyl car.
the flange on that trans is different.
What you need is this part #:
23 21 1 224 970

found on most 6cyl BMWs

It looks like this.






As you can see it is a little bit different.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

I'm not sure I fully understand the problem that you are experiencing. Do you need to use different bolts or different nuts?

Can you send a picture detailing what you're having trouble with?

Feel free to call the shop if needed.
586-698-2678.

Here are some pictures for reference. I will be calling the shop within the next 45 min. Thanks for your time.










So my problem at this point is that the bolts used to hold the three studs coming from the driveline into the flex disc are hitting the triangle flange (seen in pic's 1/2) that is on the transmission.

Driveline is original from 1989 325i convertible. Transmission is a ZF from a 97 m3.

[rbartongrimley]

I definitely have the same output flange as you. Kind of weird that they say all 6-cyl should have the one with room. I am fairly certain the tranny I have (with the flange that doesn't work) came with the car (I was the owner of the e36).

What I want to know is if I will run into issues using a later model M3's drive shaft with this transmission flange. Will it not work? Or will I have no problems. I would like to know before I pull the trigger on either of my options (grinding original/find new flange, or get different drive shaft and guibo).

[nrubenstein]

I want to know what 4-cylinder motor ever came with a ZF? :p

[SwiftE30]

I definitely have the same output flange as you. Kind of weird that they say all 6-cyl should have the one with room. I am fairly certain the tranny I have (with the flange that doesn't work) came with the car (I was the owner of the e36).

What I want to know is if I will run into issues using a later model M3's drive shaft with this transmission flange. Will it not work? Or will I have no problems. I would like to know before I pull the trigger on either of my options (grinding original/find new flange, or get different drive shaft and guibo).

I know my trans is OEM on the car. Bought it from second owner who did not change it, first owner was BMW dealership owner and had 100% maitenance records and a new trans was never put in.

You'll be fine using the later model 328i driveshaft but not a late model m3. Unless you find one with a 4bolt flange. Most late model e36 m3's came with a 6bolt rear flange. You'll have less problems with the 328i one because it doesn't have the harmonic balancer thing (big round thing on DS in last 3 pics) the e30 driveshaft has. It is a pain having it on mine and i'm going to be cutting it off the next time i am home.

Honestly, jsut grind down the flange and go with the revshift quibo. You only have to shave of a few mm for it to fit. Took my about 15 minutes and it was good to go. If Revshift says its chill then i am comfortable about doing it. haha

plus, if you can find or use your OEM e30 DS, depending on condition, just go with that. I prefer to use as many e30 parts as possible.

[treff-7]

i have my engine out of a '97 m3 as well and the flange is the same as yours and i'm pretty sure it is the one that came with the car originally.
the late model m3 or 328i manual driveshaft will work. the early won't because that one has the 6 bolt cv joint on the differential end.
if you use the e36 ds you won't have this problem because the flange is bigger so you will use the e36 guibo and the bolts will clear the transmission flange.

[SwiftE30]

i have my engine out of a '97 m3 as well and the flange is the same as yours and i'm pretty sure it is the one that came with the car originally.
the late model m3 or 328i manual driveshaft will work. the early won't because that one has the 6 bolt cv joint on the differential end.
if you use the e36 ds you won't have this problem because the flange is bigger so you will use the e36 guibo and the bolts will clear the transmission flange.

i always was told that some 96's and 97+ M3's all had the 6bolt. mine did so i sold it.

and yeah i didnt even thikn about about how the e36 ds's are bigger. if he already bought the revshift guibo he might as well use it. actually, depends on if he got the e36 one, or the one that mates an oem e30 ds to the zf trans. He didnt specify.

[328ijunkie]

To be honest of all the ZF trannies ive installed ive NEVER seen that weird cut out flange.

[John@Revshift]

Hi guys.

We do acknowledge this on the product page on our website. We made a little writeup about it too. Here: https://www.revshift.com/swapdiscinfo.html

We haven't had a chance to go through and figure out what flange came on what car exactly but by using BMWFans.info we found that the "closed" flange came mostly on e36's with a 4 cylinder, early e36 325i's, and a lot of european cars. According to BMW e36 M3's only came with the open flange that works with our swap guibo.

Here is a list of the cars that the "open" flange came on: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/23211224970/

And a list of the cars the "closed" flange came on: http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/23217504491/

My 1997 M3 has the open flange. The transmission pictured above is my spare trans for my M3 with the open flange on it as well.

To be honest with you, if you have the closed flange then grab a dremel and shave off a couple millimeters to clear the nuts. It wont hurt anything and it only takes a few minutes.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion. If you guys have any questions feel free to PM me, email us, or call us up.

[328ijunkie]

Just cause the ETK says something doesnt make it true. As ive said Ive NEVER seen that flange on any ZF i have had through the shop. I have 4 sitting in front of me right now.
And the 'Closed" flange youre looking up is for small guibo cars. 23217504491
Is for G250's ONLY. never was put on a ZF.

And the Open flange is Pictured for EVERY single ZF equipped car in the ETK all the way up to E46s when again i have never seen one on any ZF trans.
Not ripping on you guys but just saying basically every single person buying your product is going to run into this issue.

[328ijunkie]

Just what i have laying around the shop. 3 different ZF boxes. None with the flange you have pictured.

[John@Revshift]

Just cause the ETK says something doesnt make it true. As ive said Ive NEVER seen that flange on any ZF i have had through the shop. I have 4 sitting in front of me right now.
And the 'Closed" flange youre looking up is for small guibo cars. 23217504491
Is for G250's ONLY. never was put on a ZF.

And the Open flange is Pictured for EVERY single ZF equipped car in the ETK all the way up to E46s when again i have never seen one on any ZF trans.
Not ripping on you guys but just saying basically every single person buying your product is going to run into this issue.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree. We use the BMW ETK all the time and have never found it to be inaccurate. Simply by design it has to be correct.
It's the BMW parts catalog after all.

Out of the dozens of our swap guibos that have sold we have only had 3 people who had a problem with the flange. Two of them are here in this thread :p

Point is, Not everyone will have a problem with our swap guibo. Not trying to start a super mega flame war here, it's just that we don't want the image that if you buy our parts you're gonna have a problem. We just want everyone to have accurate information.

As always, we're always here to help either by phone, email of PM.

[nrubenstein]

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree. We use the BMW ETK all the time and have never found it to be inaccurate. Simply by design it has to be correct.
It's the BMW parts catalog after all.

Out of the dozens of our swap guibos that have sold we have only had 3 people who had a problem with the flange. Two of them are here in this thread :p

Point is, Not everyone will have a problem with our swap guibo. Not trying to start a super mega flame war here, it's just that we don't want the image that if you buy our parts you're gonna have a problem. We just want everyone to have accurate information.

As always, we're always here to help either by phone, email of PM.

The ETK clearly also shows supersession.

[328ijunkie]

What im saying is the picture isnt barley ever correct. Example:
The E34 525 MC looks absolutely NOTHING like the one pictured. Yet the PN is correct.
ETK:

Real Part:



Again not trying to start a flame fest but facts are facts. I have run into this numerous times in the ETK and again I have Never seen that flange on a transmission other than the one you have pictured.

Also tell your customers not to bother trying to order a open flanged one because if they order the PN you have listed theyll get the closed flange one. Ask me how i know.

[John@Revshift]

Good to know, thank you. We will look into it more to get a better understanding of what came on what and, hopefully, be able to provide exact details on the flange applications in the future.

The most important thing that we want everyone to know here is that our swap guibo was designed with the open flange. It will work with the closed flange but a little bit of grinding will be necessary. If it is a concern then please check your flange before ordering the part. If you don't care then you probably don't mind busting out your dremel.