worth while M50 NV mods

[Wanganstyle]

Get a 4.10lsd if you don't already have one, best mod i you are staying N/A

IMO no; its too short for anything under 8,000 rpm redline

single throttle 24v engines are too weak on top end power to utilize such a short final, you will be stuck in no hp no torque land (past the peak power zone per dyno chart)

my own 24v swap was paired with 8,388 rpm redline and OEM 24v 5 speed transmission+3.38; it was actually pretty damm good.

4.10 would have irritated me and caused a reduction in speed of car from too many shifts, with the increased HP and Torque of my swap I actually wanted to drop the final drive down from 3.38 to a 3.15.



24v car would be faster with longer gearing for less shift since it has a decent horsepower/torque advantage over the 12v lump. Popular ratios for 24v swap's with proper matching transmissions are around 2.93-3.23.

Out of all the Diffs I have configured for 24v swap weapons not a single one was a 4.10...........

I ran a 4.10 on my e36 m3 Automatic transmission car; it was actually long legged enough (5th super overdrive) to utilize it.
If one does a S52+5EAT ZF HP518 swap, then 4.10 is the killer item.



4.10 + any proper 24v 5mt transmission (all are non-overdrive 5th)= no first gear start in 2nd - effectively a 4 speed.

If you put in a Getrag 6 speed + 24v swap and add a 4.10 final drive you are basically throwing away the 6th gear.

[328ijunkie]

4.10=fail
;0

[devon.818]

IMO no; its too short for anything under 8,000 rpm redline

single throttle 24v engines are too weak on top end power to utilize such a short final, you will be stuck in no hp no torque land (past the peak power zone per dyno chart)

my own 24v swap was paired with 8,388 rpm redline and OEM 24v 5 speed transmission+3.38 it was actually pretty damm good. 4.10 would have irritated me and caused a reduction in speed of car from too many shifts, with the increased HP and Torque of my swap I actually wanted to drop the final drive down from 3.38 to a 3.15.



24v car would be faster with longer gearing for less shift since it has a decent horsepower/torque advantage over the 12v lump. Popular ratios for 24v swap's with proper matching transmissions are around 2.93-3.23.

Out of all the Diffs I have configured for 24v swap weapons not a single one was a 4.10...........

I ran a 4.10 on my e36 m3 Automatic transmission car; it was actually long legged enough (5th super overdrive) to utilize it.
If one does a S52+5EAT ZF HP518 swap, then 4.10 is the killer item.



4.10 + any proper 24v 5mt transmission (all are non-overdrive 5th)= no first gear start in 2nd - effectively a 4 speed.

If you put in a Getrag 6 speed + 24v swap and add a 4.10 final drive you are basically throwing away the 6th gear.

i have a 3.73lsd in my 24v swap car, and a g250 trans.
lets just say i spin the tires into 4th and am MECHANICALLY limited to 130mph hitting the r3v limiter in 5th...yeah i'm getting a much lower gear LSD once i find a new case for my 3.23

[Tchao]

Few things you can do to your Non-Vanos.

Run dual intake cams (or S50 exhaust cam)
Advance the intake cam a few degrees
Chip tune.
Supersprint rep headers on EBay and full exhaust.

Or Ditch it for M50tu, get s50 cams and software.

[Wanganstyle]

Few things you can do to your Non-Vanos.

Run dual intake cams (or S50 exhaust cam)
Advance the intake cam a few degrees
Chip tune.
Supersprint rep headers on EBay and full exhaust.

Or Ditch it for M50tu, get s50 cams and software.

No need; like mentioned prior the Vanos system is pretty much PNP and cams to go with it. install the vanos unit+s50/52 cams into non vanos head and swap harness/DME if desired.

a M50NV is = M50 vanos as far as longmotor is concerned; both need cam-ing for power, playing advance/retard games on cams is um......what vanos is for :D

[jrdeamicis]

I would like to look at some NV cams, how do they mount the mount plate?

[mo diesil]

Few things you can do to your Non-Vanos.

Run dual intake cams (or S50 exhaust cam)
Advance the intake cam a few degrees
Chip tune.
Supersprint rep headers on EBay and full exhaust.

ive done this expect for the advance in timing.
has any one made a m50 nv stoker?

[Wanganstyle]

yes, stuff in 2800, 3000, 3200cc rotating assembly. Pnp unless you choose a setup with larger than m50b25 bores.

[e30polak]

You will spend more money on the mods then the miniscule power gains are worth.

After thinking about it, the NV has a pretty bullet proof bottom end and head, so just throw a 100 shot of nitrous on it! :woowoo:


And for all of those saying the NV is simpler for turbo application, that's a poor argument. It has a heavier rotating assembly, which causes later spool. I also believe the NV does NOT have a forged crankshaft as the Vanos motors do. As far as tuning is concerned, Megasquirt may be a nice set-up for the price, but a turbo NV will always be a less efficient set-up compared to a similarly set-up Vanos motor, with a TRM/AA/Miller tune.

[brokenbimmer533]

ive done this expect for the advance in timing.
has any one made a m50 nv stoker?

Yup. Currently working on the MS2 for mine.
S52 crank
135mm rods (IE)
Low comp 84.5mm pistons
oringed block
MLS head gasket
Adapter from m50 harness to MS2 is giving me trouble right now.

[Wanganstyle]

You will spend more money on the mods then the engine is worth.


And for all of those saying the NV is simpler for turbo application, that's a poor argument. It has a heavier rotating assembly, which causes later spool.

Agreed. 100%

Vanos = happier/more effective turbo.

VANOS helps turbos spool, helps increase power under curve. Turbo is all about this "power under the curve" bs, and rightly so

Why pick one that hampers self?

"I want turbo but don't want the thing that can make the turbo more efficient"


choosing a NV just for boosting because its non vanos is slightly counter-intuitive

out of all the crazy modifications an aftermarket company has made, the most high tech solution to make a Skyline GTR (r32-34) spool its turbine/turbines faster is to add variable valve timing to the RB26DETT.

They even make 2 versions, one has 30 degrees, one has 50 degrees variable!!!!!

using a not-so aggressive cam for an ITB twin turbo 24v 6, the V-cam setup turns the RB26dett basically into a single vanos boosted euro s50b30 that has been de-stroked, de-bored and twin turbo'ed

Why add vanos/variable valve timing? Make MOR POWAR!!!! 4 T3H F4STARRRR

http://www.hkseurope.com/engine/vcam_step1.asp

[mo diesil]

love my s50 turbo

[Wh33lhop]

No need; like mentioned prior the Vanos system is pretty much PNP and cams to go with it. install the vanos unit+s50/52 cams into non vanos head and swap harness/DME if desired.

a M50NV is = M50 vanos as far as longmotor is concerned; both need cam-ing for power, playing advance/retard games on cams is um......what vanos is for :D

I am not emtirely sure what your claim is in the second paragraph, but Vanos and NV bottom ends are NOT the same. Different rods and pistons, 10.5:1 compression on Vanos motors vs. 10:1 NV. I would not think a Vanos retrofit would be worth it vs. a full m50tu swap, especially considering you would have to swap harnesses, then MAFs and god knows what else that isn't compatible (IIRC NVs have no knock sensors).

You will spend more money on the mods then the miniscule power gains are worth.

After thinking about it, the NV has a pretty bullet proof bottom end and head, so just throw a 100 shot of nitrous on it! :woowoo:


And for all of those saying the NV is simpler for turbo application, that's a poor argument. It has a heavier rotating assembly, which causes later spool.

I do not think this is entirely accurate. Heavier internals will act similar to heavier flywheel, which will increase parasitic loss/drag. But that won't affect spool rate. It is a pretty academic argument anyway as the amount of mass we are talking about is not that significant.

I also believe the NV does NOT have a forged crankshaft as the Vanos motors do. As far as tuning is concerned, Megasquirt may be a nice set-up for the price, but a turbo NV will always be a less efficient set-up compared to a similarly set-up Vanos motor, with a TRM/AA/Miller tune.

Don't quote me on this, but I do not think the vanos and Nv motors have different cranks.

Here is the breakdown on Vanos vs NV motors and why people thought NVs were better for boost.

NVs have beefier rods- this is true, but it turns out they are unnecessarily beefy. Superfluous reciprocal mass is not good.

NVs have thicker cylinder walls- myth. If it is true, it is only by a few thou.

NVs have hotter cams and dual valve springs- true, but dual valve springs are also unnecessary and readily available m3 cams are hotter than NV's.

NVs have a lower compression ratio: true, but it is not that much lower and not a big deal, especially with an MLS in the mix.

NVs are less of a headache to tune- this is true, and Vanos, if you want to utilize it correctly, makes certain popular EMS solutions (cough, megasquirt, cough) tougher to use.

The bottom line: variable valve timing is a good thing. It will help with spool. A good example here is the 4g63t. The evo 8 and 9 4g63s are near identical, performance-wise, besides MIVEC. Same internals, same cams, same turbo, same exhaust. Evo 9s spool 3-400rpm earlier. With a bigger turbo it's more like 7-800rpm. Some intake cam advance can do quite a bit for spool.

Agreed. 100%

Vanos = happier/more effective turbo.

VANOS helps turbos spool, helps increase power under curve. Turbo is all about this "power under the curve" bs, and rightly so

Why pick one that hampers self?

"I want turbo but don't want the thing that can make the turbo more efficient"


choosing a NV just for boosting because its non vanos is slightly counter-intuitive

out of all the crazy modifications an aftermarket company has made, the most high tech solution to make a Skyline GTR (r32-34) spool its turbine/turbines faster is to add variable valve timing to the RB26DETT.

They even make 2 versions, one has 30 degrees, one has 50 degrees variable!!!!!

using a not-so aggressive cam for an ITB twin turbo 24v 6, the V-cam setup turns the RB26dett basically into a single vanos boosted euro s50b30 that has been de-stroked, de-bored and twin turbo'ed

Why add vanos/variable valve timing? Make MOR POWAR!!!! 4 T3H F4STARRRR


http://www.hkseurope.com/engine/vcam_step1.asp

Shit, im on my iphone right now and forgot what I was going to say. But you need to start adding cliffs notes dude. All of your posts are just huge streams of consciousness. :p

[e30polak]

1. I do not think this is entirely accurate. Heavier internals will act similar to heavier flywheel, which will increase parasitic loss/drag. But that won't affect spool rate. It is a pretty academic argument anyway as the amount of mass we are talking about is not that significant.

2. Don't quote me on this, but I do not think the vanos and Nv motors have different cranks.

1. Have you driven a turbo Vanos engine before and after a lightweight flywheel?

It makes a difference in spool time for a fact. Therefore so will the lighter internals. The lighter the rotating mass, the quicker the motor will rev, which is always beneficial - boosted or NA.

2. I'm almost positive that the NV has a heavier, cast crankshaft, unlike the heat-treated and forged Vanos cranks.

[Wh33lhop]

1. Have you driven a turbo Vanos engine before and after a lightweight flywheel?

It makes a difference in spool time for a fact. Therefore so will the lighter internals. The lighter the rotating mass, the quicker the motor will rev, which is always beneficial - boosted or NA.

Lighter internals will make the motor a tiny bit more eager to rev. They will not help with spool, rpm wise. Again, we are not talking about much of an appreciable difference--with a lightweight flywheel you are shaving off many pounds of weight, mostly towards the outer edge of the flywheel, so at an effective torque arm of ~4 inches. Rods, you are shaving a total of what, optimistically a few hundred grams? At an effective radius of about half the total stroke (actually a little less than that), so about 1.5". It will not be noticeably rev happy, and you certainly will not notice a difference in any gear tall enough to be worth boosting in.

2. I'm almost positive that the NV has a heavier, cast crankshaft, unlike the heat-treated and forged Vanos cranks.

I think you are wrong on this. All M50s have a cast crank. Forged cranks went in some (all?) M52s, and all S50s and S52s. Regardless, all M50s can take quite a bit of boost if you slap on an MLS and ARPs.