M50 with mods or stock S50?

[ParsedOut]

i dunno, u tell me :)

[clutterbucker]

My friend's father had a 328 sequential biturbo that produced 512whp...although it was an alpina setup, I think you could probably get similar results from any setup in which you use two turbos...one big one small.

Reliability is a different issue altogether. I say stroke the M50 out, that would be something mildly different to see. The low-end power would be amazing, and you'd stay away from turbo lag and reliability issues that inevitably come with FIing an NA engine.

I have an M50 I'd sell you for cheap as all hell (cause it needs a rebuild anyway), but it's a VANOS engine, and I'm in NY, so I guess that's out.

On a side note...does anyone else think "chicks with dicks" when they hear the word "tranny"? Makes me uncomfortable.

[Mot]

If you need any help when you move up here, there is a fairly large group of us in the PDX and Wa area. I'd love to help with any thing I can, I just finished a 2.7l m20 stroker swap on my e30.

[Addissimo]

To bore the m50 engine is pretty much pointless, unless of course you're talking about a non-vanos engine. The vanos block shouldn't be bored past 85mm, non-vanos can go to 86... maybe 86.4.

I basically have 3 engines right now:

93' vanos m50,
97' Vanos m52,
S52.

Two are disassembled, the other is going in my car to hold me over 'till its warm and I can decide what I want to do.

The point is: I've been researching engines and nothing but for the last two months.

If I had a $6k budget my engine would look something like this:

Aluminum m52 block - $700
LA Sleeve Cylinder Sleeves- $120
3.2 pistons - $200 (used lightly)
Total seal rings - $200
1997+ connecting rods (lighter) $100 (used)
3.2 Crank - $500
Schrick Cams $900 (used)
VAC shorty Headers $600
JB flywheel $500
SPEC clutch $400

Machining:

Block resleeved - $75x6 = $450
Crankshaft lightened(-10lbs) ballanced = $450
Radial Valve job - $300
Other random things: $700 +/- $200

and you're close enough to $6000

You're probably looking at about 300-320hp depending on how much you shave your head (to increase CR), and what engine management system you decide to use.

You can obviously save alot of money buy going with a cast iron block.

Or you could just get a low milage m50/m52 and boost the shit out of it and get 430whp.

[FredK]

Hey Addissimo,

That would seriously be a kickass engine. For just the engine, it'd be $6320, give or take. However, the original poster has a budget of

6k for the entire swap. so it seems that with all the little odds and ends that add up pretty quick...

Also, any reason why you're going to go with Total Seal rings? I've heard that gapless rings cause more problems than they solve.

Now for a reality check.

I made a spreadsheet to get an idea of what a swap budget should be. Assume the swap ancillaries cost around $1400 if you shop around. This includes a stock clutch kit and an aluminum flywheel, and assumes you use the Getrag 260, and "splurge" and get a new radiator and new brake hydraulics.

Most likely, the swap parts will run higher, because if you want to get a better clutch or something you're going to have to pay.

So that leaves a budget of around $4600 max for the engine, DME, harness, accessories, and maintenance parts. The maintenance parts add up.

OE water pump $70
t-stat $15
aluminum t-stat housing $20
spark plugs $35
hoses $120-160
$260 to $300

Now you have $4300 to get an engine to your door.

If $6K is a hard budget you'd be wise to get an engine in as good condition as possible, preferably pulled from a running car that you can inspect. That way, you don't go over budget when you discover bent valves or a blown headgasket.

Me, I plan to bore and stroke a non VANOS M50 to S50 bottom end specs. Top end I'll probably go with non VANOS as well, and just freshen up the top end instead of a full valve job pending inspection and maybe get a custom cam ground, if I'm feeling overly wealthy. :D

I'm just trying to be the voice of reason here. It's very easy to dig yourself into a pit of despair and debt if you don't ballpark the cost of your engine swap. Otherwise, you just think, eh, it's only $500 for this awesome clutch, only $1500 for this kickass flowed and ported head. Pretty soon you could have paid off the national debt.

[ParsedOut]

Thanks Mot, i'll definatly look you guys up when i get up there and i'll probably ask you to keep an eye out for a nice shell. my budget all depends on how much i can get a clean shell for. i've got a total of $8k to spend on the car and once i get it reliably daily driven i'm going to sell my 90 vw and use that for wheels and some other cosmetic odds and ends. i still can't get an e30 m3 out of my mind as a nice start.

[Addissimo]

OE water pump $70
t-stat $15
aluminum t-stat housing $20
spark plugs $35
hoses $120-160
$260 to $300

Now you have $4300 to get an engine to your door.

If $6K is a hard budget you'd be wise to get an engine in as good condition as possible, preferably pulled from a running car that you can inspect. That way, you don't go over budget when you discover bent valves or a blown headgasket.

Funny you should mention that, if you were to opt for 3.2 block instead and go cast iron, you would save about $1300, bringing your total down to $4,300.

:)

then you'd still need engine management of course. All I'm saying, is that it isn't that out of the question.

And shopping around always helps lower your parts price. Either way- you'll be stoked to have an m/s50 e30.

[FredK]

Time is your friend when accumulating the swap parts. If you shop around and lowball, lowball, lowball, earning E30 guys our well deserved rep (HAHA!), you can probably shave the price of the swap down.

If you got an E30 M3, you'd gain a lot in the style dept in my opinion. If you sold the S14 for around $3000-3500 (this all depends on your leakdown / compression numbers / health of the engine (vacuum leaks anyone?)), and the transmission for around $400, harness for $100, DME for $100, and some accessories which may or may not be worth much money, you'd end up with around $3600-4100. There are a few salvage M3s that are in moderate condition for $8000. So your shell would run you around $4000. That's not a bad deal, considering that you'd have 5 lug wheels. Though you'd still need to swap the engine. It'd be hard to get mega power with $4000 on a swapped engine.

[ParsedOut]

i might be getting a little wide eyed in this scenario, but how much can an e30 m3 in poor mechanical and physical condition go for? bodywork and paint are not too far out of my range of skills that it might be a "fun" project to get an m3 thats in a real bad way (assuming no frame damage of course) and doing a full rebuild and respray while maybe throwing in an S50 motor. the way i look at it, the more i complicate and drag out the project, the more money i can sneak past my wife to spend on it... :)

[Addissimo]

the more money i can sneak past my wife to spend on it... :)

I like your style.

I'd say bare minimum you'd be looking at a shell in the $4k range, so you might as well get one with a decent body and interior and motor, sell the motor, and basically just do what fred told you to.

[ParsedOut]

it all seems in theory that the 2.9l stroked M50 is a very simple and inexpensive solution. if i can shop around and find a good deal on a complete M50 motor with all ancillaries i'm looking around $1000, figure another $1500 for all of the other swap components, i think i can score some S50 rods and crank for $300, bearing set for $100?, a full engine gasket set for what $200?, an AA chip for $???. assuming i do all of the labor myself i'm looking at a complete ~220whp swap with a fresh bottom end for ~$2500-$3000. i'm not looking for anything with crazy hp, just a nice smooth, fresh motor i can rely on as a daily driver. and if i can pull off the motor swap for that, then that leaves me just enough to toy around with the idea of an e30 m3 as the candidate. i guess what i should do is just start building the motor and sourcing the swap components and while doing that keep a close eye out for a clean car to put it in, whether it be an m3 or just a 325is coupe.

[ParsedOut]

btw, thanks for all of your insights and opinions on this subject. i really do appreciate it and will go a long way in my decision when the time comes. i have a bad (or good depending how you look at it) habit of over thinking things to the point of utter confusion. i need to start putting this stuff down in a spreadsheet.

[kurinto]

Every once in a while, a 92 325 will be on cars.com or craigslist for around $2k, I've even seen $1.5k once. Its usually a guy trying to get money fast, or someone just trying to get rid of their old car. I was humoring this idea because then you could take the engine and any related parts you need, suspension, steering rack, etc. and sell the rest. Just a suggestion as I'm in the same boat as you trying to plan my project.

[FredK]

If you can get a parts car really cheap, sometimes it's not a bad idea to snap it up. If you can get it for around $2K, you should definitely consider this if the vehicle is a manual. Then you can do the swap a little bit easier. Also, the pedal box and whatnot is usually easy to sell to an E36er who wants to switch from auto to manual. Not to mention the other body parts that people might want, like the bumpers, fenders, hood and trunk, stock jack, tools, radio head unit, etc. etc.

You could even slap in the old radiator into your swap, and then watch the neck crack off 3 miles after you start up your pride and joy. Just kidding. :D

[Budget Beater]

you actually can make S50 numbers out of a M50 naturally aspirated which is pretty impressive, especially on the 92 non-vanos motors b/c they are the best of all the M50s (much better cams and much stronger valvetrain.)