2.8L M52 opinions

[E30_pilot]

Alright,

I'm talking with a guy that is selling his M52 2.8L w/access. and ecu for $1700 shipped. But it's OBD II.

I read that you can swap to OBD I by using a stand alone management, and swap the intake mani. But is there anything else?

What do you guys think?

[permit]

There are a lot of little things you need to do. Particularly with electrical shit. M52 wiring harness is useless to you.

[The Fast One!]

you don't need a stand-alone EMS. but the m52 wire harness and ecu will do you absolutly NO good,

you need to get the wire harness from an m50 and same for the ecu (one without EWS) you need to change the VANOS and the water temp sensor on the head, since the OBD-II cars had two and their is one on the OBD-I...
you can find writeups on how to do all of this...

getting it into the e30 also takes e34 oil pan, e34 m5 motor mounts, 325ix/320 brake booster, custom lines if you want to keep A/C and a few other little things...


how many miles are on the motor, I'll pick it up if you decide not to take it. ;)

[Addissimo]

If you go the standalone route, you'll only need an m50 intake manifold, and the standalone ecu of your choice.

[jrez]

All I can add is, you can make obd2 work. It's still a good idea to swap to the obd1 intake, as the m52 one is restrictive. If you plan on using the key, make sure you get the complete EWS2 system, and the ZKE IV body electronics module, as the ews module needs the digital input from it.
A key alone won't be enough. You can get this programmed out now apparently, but I wired mine up and it works. No key, no start.
You also need a converter module to change the speedometer signal from anologue to digital, for the DME vehicle speed input. If you don't, it goes into default, and redline is 5500 rpm.

As for performance, I've seen 240 kph indicated with my m52, and that's without the m50 intake. That, s52 cams, and programming are coming up this spring.
OBD1 or not, thats plenty quick, and it does take more thinking to get it to work. But to say obd2 is no good is misleading. My car is proof of that.

[E30_pilot]

All I can add is, you can make obd2 work. It's still a good idea to swap to the obd1 intake, as the m52 one is restrictive. If you plan on using the key, make sure you get the complete EWS2 system, and the ZKE IV body electronics module, as the ews module needs the digital input from it.
A key alone won't be enough. You can get this programmed out now apparently, but I wired mine up and it works. No key, no start.
You also need a converter module to change the speedometer signal from anologue to digital, for the DME vehicle speed input. If you don't, it goes into default, and redline is 5500 rpm.

As for performance, I've seen 240 kph indicated with my m52, and that's without the m50 intake. That, s52 cams, and programming are coming up this spring.
OBD1 or not, thats plenty quick, and it does take more thinking to get it to work. But to say obd2 is no good is misleading. My car is proof of that.

what is this key you're talking about?
EWS2 system? and ZKE IV body electronics module?

wouldn't using the stand alone route
and swapping a m50 intake mani be the easiest/cheapest way to get
the m52 working?

[jrez]

key - ignition key that has a chip embedded in it, which is assigned specifically to each individual DME. There is a antenna ring around the ignition(e36) which reads the chip in the key, sends the info to the EWS2 module. The EWS also needs an "unlocked" digital signal from the body electronics module, and it will then tell the DME all is ok, and will let starter solenoid current to pass. Car starts. Thats the whole system.
You can now apparently get this feature programmed out of the DME, which would simplifly the wiring greatly.
As for the standalone route, have you ever tried to program fuel curves, ignition curves, vanos activation, etc? How are you going to incorparate the coil on plug ignition? Can you even use them with whatever standalone system you use? What about cost? Im thinking that something that comes ready wired/ programmed for a vanos engine would be well over 2 grand. If not, let me know, I'd like to see it also.
To me, going standalone is alot more money and more work in terms of programming, not to mention the physical work involved in removing/replacing wiring/connectors, or components. Guys I know who have installed these systems are forever tuning them, and these are all in race cars, where all around driveability/fuel economy/emissions are not priorities, not to mention no vanos.
Im not trying to steer you one way or another, but OBD2 is not black magic, as is common opinion, and I'd like to offer a positive experience concerning it.


John

[T.Dot E30]

Im not trying to steer you one way or another, but OBD2 is not black magic, as is common opinion, and I'd like to offer a positive experience concerning it.


John

Finally someone who knows what they are talkin about, alot of false assumptions going around the internet.....and ppl who dont better go on spreading it.

[E30_pilot]

.
You can now get this feature programmed out of the DME, which simplifies the wiring greatly.

John

How do I to get it programmed out? But you got wired it up to have to start
w/o the key, right?


Thanks, I always hear that OBD2 is pain to deal with. But seeing
that you have a running OBD2 in your car, maybe it isnt that bad.

[Addissimo]

As far as standalone efi goes-

Megasquirt is going to be the most cost efficient, and is probably the best option.

Currently you can use the stock trigger wheel, and output to 3 ignition coils with a wasted spark setup.

If you dont feel like figure out the pulse width, you can fit a ford EDIS system with MS, and keep three outputs.

Vanos is as simple as simple can be. Its on/off. I'm using SDSefi, which only has an rpm activated on. I'm getting a RPM activated window switch to control vanos. You set the rpm for the vanos solenoid to switch on, and the rpm for it to switch off. No big deal.

I chose to go with standalone efi for the following reasons:

The wiring is pretty much completely my own. If there is a short somewhere, I should easily be able to track it down.

It has given me a better understanding of what all goes into fuel injection systems.

Because you tune the system to each individual engine, it is more efficient and makes the car quite a bit faster.

I personally wouldn't want to touch OBD-2 with a 10ft pole, mainly because you have to do tailor wiring, and you're still stuck with a restrictive emissions system. If you're going to do tailor wiring, you might as well be getting more power.



-Addis

[puusitalo]

As far as standalone efi goes-

Megasquirt is going to be the most cost efficient, and is probably the best option.

Currently you can use the stock trigger wheel, and output to 3 ignition coils with a wasted spark setup....

And with 027 or newer extra code you can do 6 coil outputs ! Missing tooth wheel and 2nd trigger are required for this.

Petteri

[jrez]

VAnos- you're half right. here's a quote from the technical description "VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position"

You could trigger the solenoid strictly by rpm, but as you're only using one parameter dictating activation, you won't get the same driveabilty as OEM

The engine harness is stock. If i ever need to troubleshoot, all I need is the e36 Bentely manual. The engine diagnostic port also works, allowing retrieval of fault codes.
The EWS2 is wired up under the dash and did require a small harness/fuse panel, due to the low amp circuits/on-off combinations required, and not available in the standard e30 body harness. If I decide to change engines, another obd2 M52 will connect right up via the Doestch plug connectors in the engine bay. Plug and play. another plus is many of the compatible circuits from both chassis share the same color coded wire.
This would hardly be the case with MSII, but considering you have to make an custom engine harness anyhow, it would be a good idea to do so.

Considering the effort in time, money, and overall complexity of completing what you're proposing, I would think most would be better off going OBD2, or even OBD1. Just getting MSII run as good as either OBD1/2 OEM system would be a big achievement. Have you actually done this swap, or know of anyone who has? I look on the MS site time to time, but I've never seen what you're talking about done.
I'd be interested to see how you make out though. Afterall, they told me OBD2 could'nt be done....

[Addissimo]

VAnos- you're half right. here's a quote from the technical description "VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position"

You could trigger the solenoid strictly by rpm, but as you're only using one parameter dictating activation, you won't get the same driveabilty as OEM

Sorry, I forgot to mention the Simple Voltage Switch that will be running along with the rpm window switch.

The simple voltage switch will be attached to the TPS, when the TPS reaches 50% (i'm guessing, I'll have to research a bit to see what the factory settings are) it'll send power to the window switch, which will send power to the VANOS solenoid.

Alot of wiring, I know, but it'll be rad when its done.

As far as people that have fitted MS to an m50, there is one person on msefi.com that has done it that I know of.

I dont understand why people think MS on an m50 is such black art. You can pretty much fit any standalone system on any engine- that is the beauty of standalone systems, most of them are universal. It depends on your knowhow, and determination to get it done.

-Addis

[Jason89i]

[QUOTE=The Fast One!] you need to change the VANOS [QUOTE]

obd2 vanos works perfectly. you just need to change the vanos selinoid (sp) to the obd1 or lengthen the cable. the obd2 selinoid wiring is too short to reach the obd1 wiring harness. cheers, jason

[jrez]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the Simple Voltage Switch that will be running along with the rpm window switch.

The simple voltage switch will be attached to the TPS, when the TPS reaches 50% (i'm guessing, I'll have to research a bit to see what the factory settings are) it'll send power to the window switch, which will send power to the VANOS solenoid.

Alot of wiring, I know, but it'll be rad when its done.

As far as people that have fitted MS to an m50, there is one person on msefi.com that has done it that I know of.

I dont understand why people think MS on an m50 is such black art. You can pretty much fit any standalone system on any engine- that is the beauty of standalone systems, most of them are universal. It depends on your knowhow, and determination to get it done.


-Addis

Has anyone been able to datalog engine parameters, for reference, so you could at least start close to, or the same as the OEM map? I remember a thread awhile back where someone was asking just that(MS site), but there was'nt any solid replies. Would make tuning/programming standalone easier/safer.

I don't think the black art moniker is the real issue in(vanos notwithstanding) using standalone on m50/m52 engines. I think it's more the results vs. effort ratio that turns most off to doing this. It's a lot of work, both installing and tuning, and most will constantly chasing one problem or another. This is very evident at the MS forum, and at least for a road car, most opt for minimal hassle. OBD1/2 is very much powering up a OEM harness in another body, and driving away.(Okay, there's a little more to it)
That being said, if one is into constant tuning/tweaking, fly at it. Nothing wrong in going down a new path and learning something new. Im personally looking at doing MSII for my VW racecar. But im going to wait awhile for the bugs to be worked out first.




John