GENERAL review of non-stock options for noobie?

[stevehecht]

I'm not a noobie owner, but I am a noobie to the swap world--and I'm not mechanically inclined. (And I'm 64 with a bad back, so I would farm this job out to an indie shop.) I've been reading up on the sticky threads here and on e30tech.com and I'm a bit overwhelmed with the number of options. The discussions on these threads are over my head technically and too specific for where I'm at in making the initial choice of which motor to go with.

If there's a thread out there talking about the pros and cons of each choice, or if folks can chime in here that would be great. I'm looking at M54, S50, S52--other suggestions appreciated. If possible I'd like a GENERAL idea of what kinds of options you have with "ancillary" hardware (tranny, driveshaft, cooling, exhaust, etc.) that comes with installing each of the engine choices--or whether you can stay stock with a particular engine swap.

And a general idea of the relative cost of the engine options I listed and costs of installation would be helpful. I know a lot of the cost depends on what other hardware choices you make, but again, just generally speaking. What's the downside of keeping my M20 OEM tranny and driveshaft?

I have just retired and plan to get back into autocross a bit (maybe 5-6 times per year) and I don't want to be supercompetitive or anything--just have a good time. I'd like anywhere from 220-240 hp. Here's my current mod list for my E30 coupe with ~150K miles. My wife and I are retiring to Santa Fe, New Mexico next month, so I will to find a shop there to work with (referrals to a shop in NM would be great).

E36 rack
Conforti chip
4.10 LSD
M3 Springs
Bilstein HD
1.9 Z3 short shifter
Cabrio fsb
M3 rsb

Any help would be appreciated. I know it's hard to stay general when all we're really talking about is specific choices! A spreadsheet with all/most of this information would be my dream. Thanks in advance for your help.

[andyman2487]

Hi Steve,

I don't have a spreasheet of the different options for each swap part but I can comment on a few of the parts I know about:

Radiator:

People often use the Mishimoto E36 radiator for 24v swaps but I've had several buddies who ran these get leaks. The core separates/corrodes away from the end taks. They have a lifetime warranty so they replace for free but I didn't want to risk getting stuck so I've been running the stock Behr radiator. No overheating issues with a built S52.

Electric Cooling Fan:

You can definitely use the stock auxiliary fan as your primary electric cooling fan when you swap, it moves a ton of air. The problem I had with this was that I removed my A/C and if you remove the condenser, you need to fab custom brackets to mount it. Many people run low profile SPAL pushers in front of the radiator. I went with a flex-a-lite curved blade pusher:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/400/398/10002/-1

It is really quiet and moves a ton of air. I don't think it'll fit with the condenser in there though, it is pretty thick.

MAF:

I recommend the 3.5" Euro MAF over the stock MAF, it lets more air into the engine and they're like $150 new on amazon. You'll need a different intake boot to fit the bigger MAF and a tune to support it. Most people do 21lb or 24lb injectors with this MAF and a chip.

Cams:

I can't comment on a stock S52 with stock cams but S52 with Schrick street cams really pulls above 4k. It feels like a turbo coming on. They say to use upgraded valve springs with non-stock cams. The VAC dual valve spring kit with steel retainers are nice parts.

Clutch/Flywheel:

Sort of depends on what you're running. I felt a little leery of aftermarket clutches after reading about some of them coming apart at high revs. Also the feel/noise from some that I saw in person didn't inspire confidence so I wanted to stick with something made by an OEM. I went with the Sachs "618" sport pressure plate, stock sachs 325i clutch disk, and a shaved single mass flywheel. This setup will hold 400+ ft. lbs. so not really necessary for a stockish engine. The pedal is really stiff but I like it. Depends how strong your left leg is.

A friend has an E30 M3 pressure plate, the pedal is on the other side of the spectrum - it's extremely light. Definitely lighter feel even than my stock e30 325i pressure plate.

Also some people just run the stock M20 clutch/PP, even with S52. I would be concerned with slippage but people swear by this setup.

Trans/Driveshaft:

I kept the stock M20 trans/driveshaft, with a 24v it rotates the trans a few degrees from where it was stock. You'll need a new transmission crossmember, a guy on here named gunmetalgrey sells nice ones made from thick steel. Also you'll need a angled selector rod. You can get an aftermarket one (UUC makes one), you can bend your stock one, or you can cut and reweld any.

Pullies:

Some of the stock pullies are plastic and I wasn't into that so I went with aftermarket underdrive pullies. VAC Motorsports makes a nice underdrive pulley set so I went with them. The drawbacks would be cost and mine squeak a little on startup when it is really wet and cold out.

Ignition Coils:

Not necessary to get the 'upgraded' ones, people run stock coils on 1000hp S52s. Go with an OEM manufacturer if you decide to replace them.


Hope that helps a little. My buddy Ian made a thread where you can find info on what people are using, there's some good info in there:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=257032

[justin_l_]

Save yourself some money and don't get a bigger maf and injectors. Stock injectors supply more than enough fuel for an NA motor. Also the maf is not the bottle neck of the intake system, the throttle body is the restriction. They only reason to upgrade a maf would be a forced induction application when you couldn't meter the airflow correctly because you were moving more air than it can measure.

[Farbin Kaiber]

The BMW guy in Santa Fe is a bit quirky last I remember, so there is that.

For your horsepower goals, and for ease of use and maintenance, the s52 is the only way to go. (And I'm not just saying that because I presently have a full s52e30 setup for sale here on the forum.)


EDIT: What I mean more in depth is, since you say you are not mechanically inclined, the best route from my side of seeing things is to get the most stock power you can, so that when you have your car put together, there are not aftermarket gremlins to potentially chase down and any BMW tech will have the ability to work on your setup, and in the off chance something goes wrong, it's easier to find stock replacement parts in a time crunch, or when stranded than it can be to get aftermarket ones.

[stevehecht]

The BMW guy in Santa Fe is a bit quirky last I remember, so there is that.

For your horsepower goals, and for ease of use and maintenance, the s52 is the only way to go. (And I'm not just saying that because I presently have a full s52e30 setup for sale here on the forum.)


EDIT: What I mean more in depth is, since you say you are not mechanically inclined, the best route from my side of seeing things is to get the most stock power you can, so that when you have your car put together, there are not aftermarket gremlins to potentially chase down and any BMW tech will have the ability to work on your setup, and in the off chance something goes wrong, it's easier to find stock replacement parts in a time crunch, or when stranded than it can be to get aftermarket ones.

This makes perfect sense to me, and I was already thinking along those same lines. I just want a simple, effective set-up that reliably provides the power I want. I'm not into a super-fancy "designer" set-up. Plain vanilla is good enough for me.

Sent you a PM about your S52 for sale.

[stevehecht]

Hi Steve,

I don't have a spreasheet of the different options for each swap part but I can comment on a few of the parts I know about:

Radiator:

People often use the Mishimoto E36 radiator for 24v swaps but I've had several buddies who ran these get leaks. The core separates/corrodes away from the end taks. They have a lifetime warranty so they replace for free but I didn't want to risk getting stuck so I've been running the stock Behr radiator. No overheating issues with a built S52.

Electric Cooling Fan:

You can definitely use the stock auxiliary fan as your primary electric cooling fan when you swap, it moves a ton of air. The problem I had with this was that I removed my A/C and if you remove the condenser, you need to fab custom brackets to mount it. Many people run low profile SPAL pushers in front of the radiator. I went with a flex-a-lite curved blade pusher:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Flex-a-lite/400/398/10002/-1

It is really quiet and moves a ton of air. I don't think it'll fit with the condenser in there though, it is pretty thick.

MAF:

I recommend the 3.5" Euro MAF over the stock MAF, it lets more air into the engine and they're like $150 new on amazon. You'll need a different intake boot to fit the bigger MAF and a tune to support it. Most people do 21lb or 24lb injectors with this MAF and a chip.

Cams:

I can't comment on a stock S52 with stock cams but S52 with Schrick street cams really pulls above 4k. It feels like a turbo coming on. They say to use upgraded valve springs with non-stock cams. The VAC dual valve spring kit with steel retainers are nice parts.

Clutch/Flywheel:

Sort of depends on what you're running. I felt a little leery of aftermarket clutches after reading about some of them coming apart at high revs. Also the feel/noise from some that I saw in person didn't inspire confidence so I wanted to stick with something made by an OEM. I went with the Sachs "618" sport pressure plate, stock sachs 325i clutch disk, and a shaved single mass flywheel. This setup will hold 400+ ft. lbs. so not really necessary for a stockish engine. The pedal is really stiff but I like it. Depends how strong your left leg is.

A friend has an E30 M3 pressure plate, the pedal is on the other side of the spectrum - it's extremely light. Definitely lighter feel even than my stock e30 325i pressure plate.

Also some people just run the stock M20 clutch/PP, even with S52. I would be concerned with slippage but people swear by this setup.

Trans/Driveshaft:

I kept the stock M20 trans/driveshaft, with a 24v it rotates the trans a few degrees from where it was stock. You'll need a new transmission crossmember, a guy on here named gunmetalgrey sells nice ones made from thick steel. Also you'll need a angled selector rod. You can get an aftermarket one (UUC makes one), you can bend your stock one, or you can cut and reweld any.

Pullies:

Some of the stock pullies are plastic and I wasn't into that so I went with aftermarket underdrive pullies. VAC Motorsports makes a nice underdrive pulley set so I went with them. The drawbacks would be cost and mine squeak a little on startup when it is really wet and cold out.

Ignition Coils:

Not necessary to get the 'upgraded' ones, people run stock coils on 1000hp S52s. Go with an OEM manufacturer if you decide to replace them.


Hope that helps a little. My buddy Ian made a thread where you can find info on what people are using, there's some good info in there:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=257032

Thanks, Andy!

So my take-away from this is:

1) Stock radiator will be OK
2) Stock cooling fan OK with installed AC condenser (which I have in car)
3) (from Justin_l_) Stock MAF and injectors OK
4) Schrick street cams w/upgrades valve springs recommended--but are tney necessary for a good, reliable ride?
5) Stock clutch/pressure plate OK
6) Stock transmission/driveshaft OK w/modification to selector rod
7) Stock pullies OK but maybe not ideal
8) Stock ignition coils OK (Really bizarre: I can't get the "cool" emoticon to go away. Are stock ignition coils really that great? ;) )

This looks like a very straightforward swap, which is what I'm looking for--unless there are other issues not addressed in your post.

I'll take a look at Ian's thread. Remember, I won't be tracking this car, I'll just be doing autoX several times a year, so maybe my powertrain tolerances don't need to be as high as many others. Thanks again.

[andyman2487]

Thanks, Andy!

So my take-away from this is:

1) Stock radiator will be OK
2) Stock cooling fan OK with installed AC condenser (which I have in car)
3) (from Justin_l_) Stock MAF and injectors OK
4) Schrick street cams w/upgrades valve springs recommended--but are tney necessary for a good, reliable ride?
5) Stock clutch/pressure plate OK
6) Stock transmission/driveshaft OK w/modification to selector rod
7) Stock pullies OK but maybe not ideal
Stock ignition coils OK (Really bizarre: I can't get the "cool" emoticon to go away. Are stock ignition coils really that great? )

This looks like a very straightforward swap, which is what I'm looking for--unless there are other issues not addressed in your post.

I'll take a look at Ian's thread. Remember, I won't be tracking this car, I'll just be doing autoX several times a year, so maybe my powertrain tolerances don't need to be as high as many others. Thanks again.

No prob! The stock cams/valves are probably more reliable than the aftermarket setup and I think they'll be more than enough for what you're doing. Depending on which engine you run, some people upgrade to the stock S50 or S52 cams on M5x engines for a cheap upgrade (if you can find a pair).

There are a few other details like the brake booster, power steering reservoir location/lines, motor mounts, harness adapter. I'll mention what I did for all of those, sorry if this is stuff you already know:

Brake Booster/Reservoir:

I used the E32 735i brake master & booster. Pretty much stock pedal feel. There are a bunch of options here but they all share one critical feature: the booster OD is smaller than stock e30 for clearance to the intake manifold. I used the 2002 reservoir with a custom bracket to the shock tower.

Power Steering:

I used the stock 325i rack and all e30 M20 lines. Ended up using a big hose clamp to attach the reservoir to the bracket originally meant for the main relay and zip tied the main relay out of the way by the fuse box.

Motor Mounts:

The motor mounting situation can be tackled a few different ways. I went with the AKG motor mounts and they use the stock mounting hole but are stiffer than stock. You can also use the e28 M5 (i think?) motor mounts too for a more stock feel.

Harness Adapter:

I got one from nando, it works great and he did an excellent job. You can also have the shop re-pin your harness if they have the pin pushers and are good electrically.

Coolant Hoses:

Really its all e36 stuff except for the hose that goes from the back of the head to the heater core. That needs to be an e30 one. Also you need part of the e30 spider hose to adapt the e30 coolant reservoir to the e36 spider hose.

Oil Pan:

You need the e34 oil pan, pickup tube, and dipstick.

Exhaust:

Custom midpipe w/ universal cats to the stock e30 M20 catback is fine. You'll gain some power if you get a full custom exhaust with larger tubing and an aftermarket muffler.

[stevehecht]

No prob! The stock cams/valves are probably more reliable than the aftermarket setup and I think they'll be more than enough for what you're doing. Depending on which engine you run, some people upgrade to the stock S50 or S52 cams on M5x engines for a cheap upgrade (if you can find a pair).

There are a few other details like the brake booster, power steering reservoir location/lines, motor mounts, harness adapter. I'll mention what I did for all of those, sorry if this is stuff you already know:

Brake Booster/Reservoir:

I used the E32 735i brake master & booster. Pretty much stock pedal feel. There are a bunch of options here but they all share one critical feature: the booster OD is smaller than stock e30 for clearance to the intake manifold. I used the 2002 reservoir with a custom bracket to the shock tower.

Power Steering:

I used the stock 325i rack and all e30 M20 lines. Ended up using a big hose clamp to attach the reservoir to the bracket originally meant for the main relay and zip tied the main relay out of the way by the fuse box.

Motor Mounts:

The motor mounting situation can be tackled a few different ways. I went with the AKG motor mounts and they use the stock mounting hole but are stiffer than stock. You can also use the e28 M5 (i think?) motor mounts too for a more stock feel.

Harness Adapter:

I got one from nando, it works great and he did an excellent job. You can also have the shop re-pin your harness if they have the pin pushers and are good electrically.

Coolant Hoses:

Really its all e36 stuff except for the hose that goes from the back of the head to the heater core. That needs to be an e30 one. Also you need part of the e30 spider hose to adapt the e30 coolant reservoir to the e36 spider hose.

Oil Pan:

You need the e34 oil pan, pickup tube, and dipstick.

Exhaust:

Custom midpipe w/ universal cats to the stock e30 M20 catback is fine. You'll gain some power if you get a full custom exhaust with larger tubing and an aftermarket muffler.

I just acquired a S52B32 engine right here on r3V! Here's the thread: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=339624

The engine comes with:

--3/1998 167,xxx mile, S52B32 - All engine mounted accessories included except for A/C compressor
--zf 5spd transmission w/Slave cylinder and shift linkage, clutch/pressure plate & flywheel
--e34 oilpan, pickup, pan gasket and dipstick
--e32 735i master/booster w/ 2002 remote fluid reservoir
--e36 engine mount arms
--Condor solid engine and transmission mounts (Never used, only installed for mockup)
--e36m3 driveshaft
--e36m3 OBD2 midpipes and exhaust
--remote obd2 FPR

So I guess I'll just need a harness adapter and a flashed DME to make it a go. I'll comment on your suggestions in red:

Brake Booster/Reservoir:

I used the E32 735i brake master & booster. Pretty much stock pedal feel. There are a bunch of options here but they all share one critical feature: the booster OD is smaller than stock e30 for clearance to the intake manifold. I used the 2002 reservoir with a custom bracket to the shock tower.

Done, see above.

Power Steering:

I used the stock 325i rack and all e30 M20 lines. Ended up using a big hose clamp to attach the reservoir to the bracket originally meant for the main relay and zip tied the main relay out of the way by the fuse box.

I've already got an E36 rack in the car. I assume that's OK?


Motor Mounts:

The motor mounting situation can be tackled a few different ways. I went with the AKG motor mounts and they use the stock mounting hole but are stiffer than stock. You can also use the e28 M5 (i think?) motor mounts too for a more stock feel.

As above, I just bought Condor solid engine and transmission mounts. I presume that will work just fine.

Harness Adapter:

I got one from nando, it works great and he did an excellent job. You can also have the shop re-pin your harness if they have the pin pushers and are good electrically.

Thanks for the tip. Where do I find nando?

Coolant Hoses:

Really its all e36 stuff except for the hose that goes from the back of the head to the heater core. That needs to be an e30 one. Also you need part of the e30 spider hose to adapt the e30 coolant reservoir to the e36 spider hose.

These hoses should be easy to get.

Oil Pan:

You need the e34 oil pan, pickup tube, and dipstick.

Done (see above).

Exhaust:

Custom midpipe w/ universal cats to the stock e30 M20 catback is fine. You'll gain some power if you get a full custom exhaust with larger tubing and an aftermarket muffler.

I presume the E36 M3 exhaust will work out fine.

But hey, guess what? I'm pretty damn excited!:grin::woowoo:

[stevehecht]

I've been doing my research and realize that I need to replace my 4.10 LSD when installing the new tranny/engine set-up (S52/E36 ZF). I've settled on a 3.15 or 3.25 LSD. Are there any tricks in hooking either of these up in the E30 that I should be aware of? I've heard that 3.15 is the perfect ratio for spirited street driving and a bit of autoX, which describes my use of the car.

[mpowerful]

You have to use a medium case diff out of an e28 or e30 or z3(m). If you use an e28 diff youll need to swap out the output flanges and rear cover for the e30 units (and this is the likely scenario).

[mpowerful]

Some quick research leads me to believe the 3.15lsd only came in z3m cars so....

[stevehecht]

Some quick research leads me to believe the 3.15lsd only came in z3m cars so....

Same deal with swapping out the flanges and and rear cover for the 3.15lsd from the z3? I've also read something about whether or not to reverse which way the csb (?) faces (not sure about the part name).

[mpowerful]

For z3m diff i know the cover will work but not sure on flanges. Easy enough to compare/swap when they are sitting next to each other.

[stevehecht]

FYI, if there are other swap noobies perusing this thread, I ran across a web page with a very rudimentary introduction to the E30 swap scene. It is the kind of information I was looking for when I started my research (only a few days ago!): http://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips...-engine-swaps/

(Photos not included)

BMW E30 ENGINE SWAPS

4/16/2013 3:13 PMby CarTech Books

by Robert Bowen

(Taken from BMW 3-Series (E30) Performance Guide 1982-1994 by Robert Bowen)

The M10 and M20 engines are designed around some old technology and the M42 engine is hampered by a small displacement. Turbocharging is not a valid option in some states (such as California). That leaves one option for increasing the horsepower of the E30: an engine swap.

The later 3-series engines, the M50 and S50 family, are easy to swap into an E30. This car has an S50 from a pre-1996 E36 M3.

Luckily for BMW enthusiasts, the company has used only a few different bellhousing bolt patterns and engine mount locations over the years. But before you get too excited, remember that any engine swap is a custom endeavor; even if it’s been done 1,000 times before, there are always small details that trip you up during the install process. What works for one car may not work for another, because of differences in engines and chassis.

With around 240 crank hp, the S50 and later S52 make great E30 powerplants. There are some tricks to the swap—mostly electrical, but they are straightforward and well documented.

S38B38 big six engine

The S38B38 “big six” engine from an E34 M5 can be swapped into an E30 but it is not an easy swap. The engine weighs about 100 pounds more than an M20 and the mounts, driveshaft, plumbing, and electronics all have to be fabricated.

The E30 engine bay is large and many engines, both BMW and non-BMW, have been swapped into it over the years. The BMW V-8 and V-10 swaps, while impressive, are difficult and the power advantage is not as great as the complexity of the swap.

Since an engine swap requires so much time and work, it does not make sense to swap in an engine that is only slightly more powerful than the E30 engines, such as the M50B25 and 28. Generally speaking, the best engines to swap into the E30 are the E36 M3 engines, S50B30 and S52B32. Both produce enough power to make the swap worthwhile.

S54 Engine

The S54 from the E46 M3 is rated at 330 hp. It’s size, light weight, and power make it an attractive E30 swap candidate. However, it is not an easy engine to install. (Photo Courtesy BMW Group PressClub)

The simplest way to swap these engines into an E30 is to use the ECU and wiring harness from a pre-1996 325i, since this harness is simpler than the M3 harness that normally runs these engines, which has EWS (anti-theft). This converts the engine from OBD-II to OBD-I, which adds power and reduces complexity.

Unfortunately this conversion is not a simple electronics swap. Nearly every sensor on the engine and many hard parts, such as the intake manifold and fuel rail, must be changed as well. It’s not impossible, but there are numerous small details that have to be addressed—and this is before even beginning the process of installing the engine.

The only oil pan that fits an E30 must come from a E34 535i, as no other oil pan has the sump in the right location to clear the subframe. For reference here are the parts needed to swap the oil pan:

550/552 Oil Pan Swap Parts List

Oil pan: PN 11-13-17-40-346

Oil sump gasket: PN 11-41-17-03-947

Oil pickup tube: PN 11-41-17-48-150

Dipstick PN: 11-43-17-20-875

Dipstick tube PN: 11-43-17-38-169

Dipstick O-ring PN: 11-43-12-87-541

You don’t have to buy new parts, but they can be hard to find since there is only one car that can donate them. The other necessary parts are E36 mounting ears (these should have come with the engine if you are using an S50 or S52).

The S50/S52 engine bolts to the E30 Getrag transmission using the stock 325i clutch and single-mass flywheel. However, your transmission will be at a 10-degree angle to the right and will require some modifications to the transmission mount. If you use an E36 Getrag 250 you will not have to modify the transmission mount.

Once you have an engine and wiring harness you can begin installation. The brake booster on an E30 does not clear the intake manifold, so you have to swap to an E21 booster or a Porsche 944 booster. The E21 booster allows you to retain your stock master cylinder.

The exhaust system has to be custom made (the E36 M3 manifolds will clear the E30 chassis with some tweaking); the right control arm bushing, sway bar, and rear crossmember are the tightest points. The rest of the exhaust (or at least the part that connects to the E30 tail pipe) has to be custom made.

There isn’t enough room in this book to cover every single detail of an M50/S50-type swap but this should give you enough information to start your own research to determine which parts are needed for your particular combination of engine and transmission.

E30 subframe

S54 oil pan modified

Not only has the car been modified, the factory S54 oil pan has been extensively modified to clear even the minimalist new crossmember. (Photo Courtesy Ryan Gangemi)

Here’s another angle showing just a tiny bit of the fabrication needed for this swap. Additionally, the engine has a very complicated ECU that must be modified or replaced.

E30 driveshaft

The E30 driveshaft is a two-piece driveshaft with a rubber coupling and single U-joint for the front half, a solidly mounted center support bearing with a section of sliding splines in the middle, and a rear U-joint. The center support bearing and front rubber flex coupling are replaceable but the two U-joints are swedged in place in the factory driveshaft. (Photo Courtesy Vorshlag Motorsports)

Hard urethane engine mounts can make custom swaps easier by maintaining tight clearances between the engine and parts of the chassis. They can also be modified to situate the engine at any height. (Photo Courtesy Vorshlag Motorsports)

Is the comment in purple correct? Why would you want to convert to OBD-1 (besides the fact that it's illegal AFAIK) when the OBD-2 is already part of the S52? Why would you make the time-consuming switch to OBD-1 when you can get an EWS-deleted DME?

Is the comment in green correct? Does the exhaust really have to be custom made? Can't you use the E36 M3 OBD2 mid-pipe and exhaust with the S52 exhaust manifold? I think I'm confused here.

[mpowerful]

Obd2 is not as difficult as it may have been at one time and mainly due to readily available ews delete flash. The obd2 swap is really the better way to go but is a bit more expensive when looking at adding modified options to the swap. I obd1 swapped mine. Cheaper and simpler in the long run for me.