Lets see if these will fit - 6x9 in the doors.

[Serious Sam]

That is very interesting.
So you recommend the 4tc for loudspeaker cabling.
What do you recommend for interconnects (RCA's)?

Is this stuff price prohibitive in all but the very best installs?

I guess there's no reason to twist your own - just run it flat?

[StereoInstaller1]

The reason would be cost: this shit is kind of expensive.

For me there is no way to braid that stuff.

[Serious Sam]

Got a few things done today.
Mentioned the hack job on the previous install.
Spkr leads got a little short, so they added some length.



Tore into the factory harness. They used the factory wiring for the fronts but ran new stuff for the rears, AND ran it along the battery power side of the car, AND did not have enough length so spliced some extra to make it work. I bet this happens alot.



worked on and completed (well...enough to listen and install the spkr till I can full complete the system after funds arrive) the drivers 6.5 baffle. I want to add another bolt in the lower right "corner" of the baffle, I just need to figure out how to secure it does not rest directly over door metal.



Also, was able to build the interim spkr baffles. Its a memphis audio coax.
I had to space the hood latch out to clear. This is all temporary till I can complete the custom kicks, but the previous 5.25's were really bad, and I also wanted to test the midbass some as well.

I used a 7.5" mdf baffle (1/2") with a 5" cutout. I wanted to secure it to the factory location, so the front houses flush mounted 1.5" screws that were located using a cardboaird template



The back houses six (6) #6 button head allen bolts with flush mounted t nuts (I think thats what they call them, not sure). I plan to apply some dynamat as well as painting the baffles black. That will happen tomorrow.















Ran all new spkr wire, and re-routed the signal cable from the passenger side to the drivers side with the new speaker wire. already had a remote turn on run, but will run a ground back to the trunk as well.

Tomorrow, the plan is to complete all wiring and tidy things up a bit to hold over till amp rack and complete install is done. Also, hope to get the headunit in. Its a RF 9210G which has a copper coated chassis and 5 volt pre-amp outs (fr, rr, sub, and aux). Decent HU.

I all goes well (which is usually doesn't) then I may get a preliminary listen later tomorrow night. Likely be Monday nite before that happens.

[Serious Sam]

The car is back in one piece tonite. At least for the time being.

The head unit went in with a little work, and I cleaned up the butcher job and installed all new spkr, remote, ground, and signal wire to the trunk.
The part I like the best is the AUX connection that allows me to hook up my ipod. I also have the 8 CD changer that goes with this HU and will be installing this during the final stage of the system. I want to make some HQ CD's for those times that it really matters what I hear from the music.

It connects to an Audio Control 4xs in a 3 way configuration.
Mid tweet is 400hz and above.
Midbass is from 90hz to 400hz
And the sub gets everything under 90hz with the PFM set at stock 33hz. They cant really play that low, but are sitting in a sealed box that should be almost twice the size for proper performance.

How does the interim system sound....decent, not bad, not great, just good.

The front coax (memphis audio 6.5's) have nice clarity and detail. Seem to handle the power just fine so far. They are rated at 50wrms, and are receiving around 80wrms from 2 ch of the RF 551x. They have a pivoting tweeter, which is nice, as so far the best imaging is done with the tweets pointing up and and away - into the upper corner of the foot well. When I had the tweeter facing me as close to on axis as it could get, the imaging was brought down, and I could hear each spkr independently.

One thing I don't like about BMW's spkr locations is how they treated the metal on the back side of the speaker. Its completely open. Its convenient for them to run the wires back there, but it allows the back waves to interfere with the fronts. Gotta figure out a way to separate them. I hope to make a substitute kick panel that can help in this. Maybe this weekend.

The midbass are, to be honest, a little disappointing so far. I expected more impact, but I remember reading recently in an old thread about Luke not caring for the Quarts midbass for lack of power handling and output.
We'll see. Right now I will definitely test my 6x9's in a back to back.
One thing good is that they blend very well with the fronts and sub. In fact, the best part of the system is that I cant tell that the sub is in the trunk. In that light, the midbass are doing a great job, I just want more impact. They are rated at 130wrms, and are receiving around 160wrms from a bridged RF 301x.

The sub is ok. It provides some foundation, and definitely helps. It was a gift from a cousin, so I am very grateful.

I ran into some issues this week trying to get any output from the sub. Its not overtly obvious in Audio Controls 4xs literature, but if you have a single sub (or subs that the amp sees as one), then you can only run one RCA in mono to the amp otherwise, you are running in stereo, and it has little to no output. After switching modules (in the 4xs), RCA's, amp, testing directly off the HU to make sure the amp and sub where OK, finally I read in the technical white papers about running the sub in mono only. phew... lots of chasing my tail on that one. Its nice to have the remote bass knob for the 551x 2 channels bridged for 300wrms to the sub (rated at 250wrms) as I go up and down constantly with changing song selection.

No pics as you've seen most of it already. Plus I did not get a chance to paint anything. Nor did I get a chance to do any wiring cleanup on the amps and AC unit in the trunk, and its a mess. I secured the amps to a wood panel that is fixed to the trunk floor. Obviously this is not permanent, as I still want to use the trunk for other things. The plan is to mount the amps over the battery, and mount the AC units (I plan to get a couple EQT's) over on the opposite side of the trunk.

If I get a chance to address these issues (paint and wiring), I'll fire off a couple shots and post them.

[Serious Sam]

Got a chance to spend some time out in the garage today.
Started out in the trunk doing some wiring organization. Took some time, but I enjoy it actually.





A couple pics of the HU. The iPhone is working out great with this HU. I dont like the look that much and it's face is glossy making it hard to see when reflecting any light colors. Its a flip down/removable face. It sounds like it sends a clean signal. I can only hear faint ticking at the highest levels that I listen (actually I cant hear anything with music playing even in classical music during "quiet" sections) while testing in pause. I am pleased that this is the case.


The face lights up reasonably well with the other dash lights. the Blue is very similar to the AC button, and the overal red is just a little "redder" than BMW's amber.



I made the passenger side kickpanel today. I mentioned in the previous post that I really did not like the gap along the back of the speaker where BMW uses this space to send its wires into the door. I had some scrap 1/4" hardboard laying around from my frineds install where we eliminated the factory piece and installed a new floor over the spare for his sub installation. It was real junk, but it stayed together (although I could not get it to match the factory kickpanel where it meets the door gasket at the bottom - just too fragile for that thin of an area). It really worked to separate the front from the back of the speaker, so I am happy. Painted everything black, but shot the speaker surround with a little silver to make it jump a little. This will improve even more in the final stage as it will have a much better backdrop to sit against with a proper paintable surface for the future custom kicks.

Once the drivers side kick is made and installed, as well as the map pocket customized (I have to reverse its attachment solution as I can no longer have the map pocket attached to the door card prior to installing the speaker, as I cant install the speaker. So I glued a bracket to the door card, and drilled thought the map pocket then routed a hole to receive the screw. Worked well.) After this is done I will be completed with this stage of the install, and have to wait till funds come to complete the custom kicks.

[Serious Sam]

Got the car back yesterday after driving my e46 328i all week. The 328i has some aftermarket direct fit speakers (Rainbows) + Eclipse 12" in the trunk. I was disappointed and pleasantly surprised at the same time.
The 325i's system just blows away the setup I have in the 328i!
Dynamic, detailed, better mids, better midbass, not so bright highs. Much better bass. The stage height increased from my last listen a week ago. Its good sometimes to remove yourself from a system, and come back to it later.

I did a little experiment today. I bought a couple 6x9 build-a-box's from Walmart several months ago. I had some bazooka 3 way 6x9's lying around, and wanted to see if the spkrs worked, and to have a little test box for future needs.

Its 1/2" MDF with some real crap double sided tape. I had already built one, and am in the process of building the second. I removed all the tape, and then properly glued everything together for a nice seal.

Anyway, I removed the mid and tweet from the 6x9 leaving me with a nice sized midbass spkr; and put it in the box, and set it in the car right under the drivers 6.5 location.

It was immediate to hear the difference. Much more impact. I went back and forth (side to side) listening to the difference. The Quarts are smoother and sound like they are going deeper. The bazooka's just hit and hit. I FELT the impact of the kick drums in songs. I dont think they blend as well between the sub and the highs, but the songs have more life in the music. More detail, more perfomrance, more impact - which is what I really like in a midbass.

I can take a pic but its not the prettiest thing, just a down and dirty test.

I wish I could get a couple test ears to see if my perspective is accurate. I tried to get my wife to tell me, but I think we werent on the same page about what I was looking for. She liked the smoother sound of the quarts, but when I cranked it on a song she liked, and the re-introduced the sub, her eyes lit up to the throbbing kick drum in Ne-yo "I just cant stop". She was smiling at the performance of the 6.9.

I don't know whether being in the sealed box vs going in the doors will drop some of that impact. I'm inclined to think that it might get even better in the doors with more room to extend - so long as I get the door is sealed and damped well.

I wish there was a device that I could use that would allow me to have both 6.9's installed in thier boxes on the floor and the 6.5's in the doors, and just flip a switch between them. I have an extra set of spkr wires going to the front that are not being used. I know they use something in the retail stores that allow them to switch between spkrs, amps, subs etc.

Any suggestions??

Also, anyone have a 3/4 " speaker grills for the MB Quart tweeters? My set never had them as I bought them secondhand.

[AndrewBird]

Just use a set of relays to switch the speakers. Have one set of speakers on the NC contact and the other on the NO. Then just flip a switch to power the relay to jump between the two.

[Serious Sam]

Nitro,
Ive done some research online to try and figure this out. It may be simple, but never having worked with many relays (other than remote turn on for multiple amps), I'm not sure I understand where all the connections need to be made.
So, this is what I believe is right, of course please correct if inaccurate:

I need four 5 pole relays.
30 (Common) from the left spkr (+ terminal into 1 relay and - terminal into 1 relay) and repeat for right spkr from the amp.

87 (NO) and 87a (NC) using left relays (2) and right relays (2) out to corresponding set of speakers

85 from the switch to choose between the two sets of spkrs. Switch ground to relays, and 12v power?

86 12v power?

Is this correct?

[AndrewBird]

Like this:



Here is the pin configuration if you are confused:

[Serious Sam]

Thanks nitro. That wS exactly what I was looking for. I searched the net for sometime and never found anything.

I don't guess it matters that the switch connects to the 85 on one relay and the 86 on theother with theground being the opposite of both

[AndrewBird]

Nope, doesn't matter as that is just the coil for the relay. The only reason the diagram show it like that is because when I drew it, I just mirrored it so it would show two speakers. And, since I was in a hurry, I didn't change it.

[cmflossin]

love the amps man. i'm running a 501x and 801s in my ride. love the older RF stuff.

[Serious Sam]

Agreed. I've always liked rf stuff. I don't think you and I have their best though. Seems like they really did good amps back in the 90's and some 80's. I don't really like the look of those but that is to underestimate them. The old 'beetle' looking or rocketship looking amps just don't look like amps to me. These do work nice and are under-rated. Clean power and not too big. I bet that 801 flat puts down some juice.
I prefer the power series. That silver amp is a 551x and it's te same size as the 301x bit with 2x the power.

[Serious Sam]

A little update.
No work on the car, but some research nevertheless.
I attended the Motorsport Nationals at Atlanta Motor Speedway. This used to be the Nopi Nationals. to say it simply, I dont see how this is going to make it - there was nobody there.
I went almost exclusively to get a chance to check out the sound quality competition. I was not able to go on Saturday during all the judging, but Sunday I think is better, cause the guys are just hanging out and welcome a listen to their cars. I just happened to say hello first to what I later learned was this years National Champion in SQ Ultimate, John Marsh - part of Team Arc Audio and Store manager at American Audio in Cumming. Very cool guy, and gave me a nice listen to an amazing car. Just amazing. The clarity, the stage height, the width. It was all there. I've never been in a pure SQ car, and I was a little surprised in the lack of bass. It was there, but to the degree that many of us are not used to - just so subtle. The vocals are simply awesome. Hybrid Audio Legatia series combined with Alpine Processing, and Arc amps - Awesome!. I really am grateful for the opportunity to listen.
I also listened to Jeff Kidwells Jeep Cherokee/Liberty?? Another laid back cool guy. Cant remember all the spkrs, but Alpine Processing, and Arc Amps. 15" Arc sub. Great bass. Very musical. First song (2001 Space Odyssey) has some amazingly deep bass. I kept wondering what that low low sound was, and it was the 15 playing some smooth low bass. I've never heard that before. Really cool.
The last car was Jorge's (?) sedan. All JBL spkrs, Alpine processing and Arc amps. I was cut a little short on this one, as the guys were called up to the stage for results. Very nice as well.
This is why I was there - to get a reference for what REAL SQ is like. Man, do I have some work.
Things I learned-
1. All three cars had three ways, relying primarily on the mid to provide 70 of the performance, detail, real stage width, . 10 on the tweeter to provide ambiance, some height. 10 on the midbass to give you that kick, that good foundation, and 10 on the bass to really get low.
2. John Marsh had over 400wrms going to EACH Pair. Wow, why, I asked? Headroom. What IS headroom? The ability to provide the juice when the music asks. Music is so dynamic, and some very short notes can require some very high power, but only for extremely short moments. If your amp is close to the limit in output, it wont be able to cope with these transients.
3. All mids tweets were up up in the dash, and as far away as possible. John and I talked a little about my set, and he recommended keeping both mids and tweet down in the kicks. Silks, bring them up, Quart metal tweet, stay off-axis and leave in the kicks. Point mids up high, almost to the mid door opening at the top. I dont think I can get it that high, but will at least hit my head height. Gonna lower my crossover for the mid to 250hz (originally thinking 400hz), and cut on top at 5.5k - trying to get all vocals into one speaker.
4. We did not get a chance to talk about the mid bass, but Johns were in the kicks (cause the dash was completely redone with the mid tweet in the fire wall area behind a cover of grill cloth) and the other two were in the doors. 2 8" midbass, and one 6.5 midbass. All were great. Having tested my 6x9's a little against my 6.5's, Jeff's reminded me of the kick that the 6x9 gave, and Johns was like the 6.5 - very smooth, not as much punch as I expected. I think the mids were so impressive that they brought all the focus on that - which is where most of the music is anyway.
5. Bass - ABSOLUTELY no boom, no vibrations, no THUMP - in any of them. Dont get me wrong the bass was evident in each one, but it was such a complimentary feeling rather than "can the front keep up with all that pounding in the back". I liked it, but I want more when I want it, and I think they all could do it for sure, they were just setup for SQ. I almost want both at the flip of a switch, when my mood hits me. John's could do that. SQ - only a 10" up front. For SPL - 4 T3's. Jeff had a 15", and I'm sure could hit if he wanted.
6. All Alpine headunits, all Alpine Processing. hummm, something in that I should think.
7. Arc Amps are great. I hope to have the chance to try some out one day.

Many thanks to those guys for taking a couple minutes with me. I'm sure they'll likely never read this, but gotta give thanks where its deserved.

I plan to go to the Greg Welch Memorial in October. May try to get out to Nashville in the next couple weeks, but I cant seem to find that show. John recommended this one as a very good opportunity to listen to some good systems.
I'm sure there is more, and I wish I had more time to talk to all othe them but this is getting a little long.

I look forward to getting going again on the kicks. This should help me create a better sounding car.

[StereoInstaller1]

Bob Zeff is the man behind ARC Audio, and Zapco before that. His amps are amazing: I still miss mine. Best sounding amps in the world, IMO. Better than 99% of the highly regarded home amps, too.

Good to hear SQ competitors are finally getting speakers off the damn floor...now do you understand why I did my mids and highs in the places they are?

When I build the new dashboard, they will be integrated into the design.

I am glad to hear you got a chance to listen to a few SQ cars. They are rare, y'know, as 99% of car audio competition died in the mid 90's, when SQ judging went away, and all anyone cared about was SPL.

The good old days are over.