I think I want a small box...

[george graves]

I think I'm more interested in a cube like box for my sub. I haven't decided on 12" or 10" sub - I might listen to some first. I know that depending on sealed vs. ported and stuff like that, a 10 can sound loose and deep, or you can make a 12 sound snappy and crisp.

But really what I want is to not add weight and not take over my trunk. So I'm was hoping on a box that is quickly removable. I've already got an idea how to secure the box. And depending on the amp(s) I'll either mount the amps to the box or maybe the bottom of the rear shelf(?)

My questions is - can I get away with a 1 - 1.5 cu ft enclosure?
How small is too small?
What do I need to keep in mind when shopping for a sub?
What should I look for?

[StereoInstaller1]

My 10" ported box is 1.5 cubic feet...and no stupid generic cube is gonna be even near as efficient in use of space or getting sound into the car..but hey, do what you want, right?

[george graves]

Wow Luke, tell me how you really feel. We'll let me say I'd love to buy one of your boxes. But...

a.) I'm more of a DIY'er
b.) Money is tight
c.) Why the hell do I own a table saw and all the tools if I'm not going to use them?
d.) Most importantly - a cube will give max volume for min weight (well actually a sphere would, but I'm not building a sphere) A shallow wide box is going to weigh a lot more.
e.) Your box doesn't look easily removable. I want to attach my box with hood tie down straps, the kind that truckers use, and make it quickly be able to de-attach it from the car in a matter of a seconds.

So, why can't I get good sound out of a cube?

[StereoInstaller1]

So make a copy...I can offer all the help I can. I have some photos of the process.

What blades do you have? Do you have a 12TPI "Full Kerf"?

[george graves]

Wut? I want a cube that's easy to remove(see above - guess you missed that?). If I didn't have all these dead hookers to move around once in a while, I'd buy one of your boxes - I promise. I'm still considering it.

I'm not really worried about building the box - I'm crafty and stuff.

I just have the standard blade in the a craftsman job site table saw - although, I don't know what a "full kerf" blade is. Does it have something to do with Kiefer Sutherland?

[StereoInstaller1]

No, it is a tooth shape, makes angle cutting in 3/4" MDF MUCH easier.

You got a cabinet stapler? It makes life MUCH better.

Why wouldn't one of my boxes come out easily? You little strappy idea would work just fine.

[george graves]

Why wouldn't one of my boxes come out easily? You little strappy idea would work just fine.

Shit Luke - I don't know. I do know that I want a box that is a basically cube. I want it to be that shape so that I can throw it in the back seat if I need to have something that needs to take up my entire trunk and not be seen. Like expensive video equipment that I often have to transport.

I also want a lighter box. A cube has less surface area then a rectangular prism for the same volume (you know this) - therefore you get more volume for less weight with a cube. It's also easy to move around. It's easier to move into the back seat if I need to. It's exactly what I want.

You make it sound like a cube will sound like shit. Haven't speakers been made into cubes for a very long time?

I know you're trying to sell me on your box - buy I just don't see that working - naw'mean?

Now I forget what I even wanted to ask....

[E30Nova]

It's pretty easy to remove Luke's box. Just sayin.

Matt

[xwill112x]

just buy a used set of subs on craigslist? thats what i do. its really not that hard to make your trunk thump in a e30.

[george graves]

It's pretty easy to remove Luke's box. Just sayin.

Matt

I think I was pretty clear on why his box won't work for me.

[E30Nova]

Yeah, don't want to spend $200, want to do it yourself, and want easy removal.

I think Luke said it best, just copy his design. The box wasn't all that heavy. Probably like 25-30 pounds tops. Honestly, if you use the same thickness wood, it's going to weigh damn near the same amount as Luke's box since you want the same size air space inside.

I was going to attempt to copy his design since he posted specs and everything in another thread. But I don't have the tools he does and I'm just lazy as hell, lol, so I thought $185 was a helluva deal.

Matt

[StereoInstaller1]

Shit Luke - I don't know. I do know that I want a box that is a basically cube. I want it to be that shape so that I can throw it in the back seat if I need to have something that needs to take up my entire trunk and not be seen. Like expensive video equipment that I often have to transport.

I also want a lighter box. A cube has less surface area then a rectangular prism for the same volume (you know this) - therefore you get more volume for less weight with a cube. It's also easy to move around. It's easier to move into the back seat if I need to. It's exactly what I want.

You make it sound like a cube will sound like shit. Haven't speakers been made into cubes for a very long time?

I know you're trying to sell me on your box - buy I just don't see that working - naw'mean?

Now I forget what I even wanted to ask....

Well what the hell.

George, I wasn't trying to hurt your goddamn feelings, WTF?

Its YOUR fucking car, do as you wish....but I am gonna tell you the same fucking exact thing that I tell everyone: I been doing this longer than most of my customers have been breathing. My shit generally is the most logical design possible, garnered from hundreds of other peoples experience and ideas...but again, it is your car, right?

Did you think you were not gonna hear form me? Do I not offer to help damn near anyone who asks? Do I not make detailed fucking explanations with as much detail as I have available? WTF, what don't I willingly give away?

[george graves]

I'm not upset man. Not sure how you inferred that from my post but...I'm just tired of repeating myself.

I know your boxes are the end product of 1000's and 1000's of installs, and years in the business - I'm sure they are great. I'm sure your box IS the best and most logical design. I didn't even have a question about boxes, building boxes, or your box vs other, ect. Do I have to repeat my self again?

Oh well. My guess is that some speakers would be better suited to a small box and what to look for - that's what I wanted to talk about. Unless I'm wrong - and subs can't sound good in a cube. You seem to keep leading me away from a cube. Seems to me subs have been installed in cubes for a long time and still sound great. What am I missing here?

[E30Nova]

They definitely can be, I've seen cube shaped boxes in places like Best Buy and in a few cars every now and then. Can't comment on the sound, though, as I've never heard em.

Matt

[StereoInstaller1]

I'm not upset man. Not sure how you inferred that from my post but...I'm just tired of repeating myself.

I know your boxes are the end product of 1000's and 1000's of installs, and years in the business - I'm sure they are great. I'm sure your box IS the best and most logical design. I didn't even have a question about boxes, building boxes, or your box vs other, ect. Do I have to repeat my self again?

Oh well. My guess is that some speakers would be better suited to a small box and what to look for - that's what I wanted to talk about. Unless I'm wrong - and subs can't sound good in a cube. You seem to keep leading me away from a cube. Seems to me subs have been installed in cubes for a long time and still sound great. What am I missing here?

OK, so you want to talk about woofer design? Do you wanna talk about what actually sounds good, or what is "most accurate", or what has the best FFT waterfall plot, or what has the best power handling....or all of that?

I will tell you this: tiny boxes (1ish cubic foot for a 12, .6ish for a 10) are boxes that run the woofer/box combo entirely below their resonant frequency, thus are insanely high in IM distortion, as well as basic THD, typically (both) in the 15% to 20% range, even at 'moderate" volume levels of 100ish db.

In addition to the crappy frequency response (nothing over 60Hz typically) these subwoofers require a HUGE amount of power to play loud, typically getting a free-field efficiency of about 81db/W/M.

What this means is that since huge power is required to play loud (105 to 110db, nothing crazy) most woofers that are actually designed to operate like this need to have huge power handling to play even at moderate volumes for any period of time.

So small boxes require LOTS of power (big heavy amps, lots of alternator stress, burly woofer) to play even close to what a properly designed ported box will do with a small, light woofer and 1/10th the power...all about the efficiency, right?

Now, about the zillions of cheap woofers out there with a spec sheet that says "sounds great in a 1 cubic foot box" I say BULLSHIT, and so do the engineers who attempt to make this mass market bullshit work, no matter what the slick fuckers who sell this shit say...simply enough, marketing says whatever bullshit they say, engineering says something completely different.

Want a quick example of that? The Alpine Type R is a perfect example. Sales screamed at us for 3 years "1 cubic foot is all it needs, yO!" and we all built shitty sounding boxes that made "thunk" instead of bass.

Fucking asswipe sales dorks said "you measured wrong"...yeah, right, you stupid fucking dickwad, here is a fucking tape, prove me wrong!

The very insanely few of us who actually gives a shit how it sounds looked at the TS parameters and said 'WTF, mate, this is a large ported box woofer" (just like the classic fosgate "audiophile" woofer...I sold hundreds of those damn things!) and being the first guy I had heard of putting that pile of shit woofer in a large ported box... I made a killing building boxes for those woofers.

Oh yeah...a couple of years later Alpine decides to build pre-fab boxes...they sure as fuck weren't sealed! Hmmm, tells you something, don't it?

So now how about all those JL woofers, all the Infinity, the JBL, the Kicker (idiots...."high Q is for ported"...the whole world says otherwise, but you just go on ahead, Oklahoma) MTX...all of them simply make the cone heavier to shift the frequency spectrum downward...simple enough, right? Add 60 grams and all the sudden you can get 30Hz out of 1.2 cubic feet...except the cone is so heavy, so sluggish that all you hear is mud. Looks great on the spectrum analyzer, but sounds like ass.

I'm tired. I am off to bed shortly...here is a quick solution: you want good clean bass in a small box? Buy an Alumapro woofer, add about triple the power you really wanna use and have fun.

Carry a spare alternator.