Audio Help, please judge & school me

[Earendil]

First, some context.

I have already read a lot here. That includes these two great threads: Here and Here. I admit I understood only 75% of it, but what I did understand I loved :)

I don't want to spend a lot on audio. What I have is working, I just have this belief that shitty things can be vastly improved with knowledge and a little money. I'm hoping that philosophy applies to my situation.

If you are going to insist I spend over $200, you may want to walk away now and advise those with more money. I won't be hurt if you do.

I'm a software engineer by trade. I tinker with electronics, but I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I do love tinkering, be it electrical, mechanical, or material (thus my E30!). My capacity to learn and modify is not usually my limiting factor, only money.

My current audio setup basically came with the car.

My 'p' and 'x' keys are busted. I'm copying and pasting those letters as I go. If I missed any locations, I apologize. Now on with the show!

The current setup is as follows:

Car: 1989 325i did not come with premium sound.

Kick panels: I believe these are original from the factor speakers. Amazingly they still function and aren't cracked.

Mirror Tweeters: Added 3 years ago during exam week. I think I plugged them up right... They produce sound.

Rears: Added by previous owner. I know nothing about them.





Head unit: The only piece of the puzzle I added. Honestly I bought this as soon as I got the car, and based it on only 4 things: Budget, component in for my ipod, separate channel for the amp and sub, and the option for a red backlight.


Sub and Amp: Again, came with the car. I don't even know if it's set up right.
I can gather more info if needed.



Yes, it appears that the base is held in place with home electrical wiring. And yes, that is a rubber gas hose that I use to hold my toolbox in place so it doesn't run around my trunk. Now you know a little more what kind of guy you're dealing with here ;)

What I "feel".
The rears are way louder than the fronts. I believe the kick panel speakers are failing, and are where I think most of the money needs to go. I'm happy with the rears, though they buzz when given too much base. I usually use the head unit to turn the internal speaker base down (to eliminate buzz, and help the fronts survive), and turn the sub in the trunk up. That said, I know no audio people, and there are no E30's peeps that live near me to compare sound with. That is to say, I don't have a good ear for this stuff.

I'm open to all suggestions. Even ones that tell me to get lost. I'm seriously only looking to spend $100-$200 on audio here. My E30 is not so amazing that when I throw money at it, the audio system is where it should land. But it's currently in a state where I can justify a few hundred. So I'd like to know what people here think I should spend my money on, and where grunt work when guided by new knowledge would benefit my system.

Ask me any questions and I'll provide the best answer I can. Now feel free to be harsh and crude while judging my current setup, as long as you're moderately helpful at the same time!
Thanks for reading!

[StereoInstaller1]

Holy crap, what a mess.

OK, so I know your deck has 3 pair of pre-outs, so what you need is: a decent box (one of mine is best, but WAY out of your budget right now) preferrably a pre-fab ported box over 1 cubic foot internally and a small 4 channel amp with variable high pass filters.


You will also need 2 more pair of RCAs, power wire, etc. Set up the high pass at about 120Hz for front, about 80Hz for the rear (which you will need to turn WAY down compared to the front) and set the low pass on the sub at about 80Hz or so.

Set up properly, the thing could sound great. Your deck is a great performer, BTW. 2.5V preouts are OK, and Panasonic are generally excellent sound quality.

[Earendil]

Holy crap, what a mess.

OK, so I know your deck has 3 pair of pre-outs, so what you need is: a decent box (one of mine is best, but WAY out of your budget right now) preferrably a pre-fab ported box over 1 cubic foot internally

By a "decent box" do you mean an enclosure for a sub? Lingo is still something I'm catching up with.

and a small 4 channel amp with variable high pass filters.

Something like this? Considering that I don't have state of the art speakers, is this an okay price range? I'm somewhat aware that I'm talking to an audio god, so forgive my potentially silly questions :)

Edit: Looks like you suggested the MB Quart Discuss to someone else on these threads. Looks like it'll work for my purposes.

You will also need 2 more pair of RCAs, power wire, etc.

Are we talking RCA cables here? Those I have in abundance, I also have a fair quantity of power and speaker wire. Nothing fancy though.

Set up the high pass at about 120Hz for front, about 80Hz for the rear (which you will need to turn WAY down compared to the front)

Gotcha. This is awesome knowledge!

and set the low pass on the sub at about 80Hz or so.

So, with an additional 4 channel amp, I would also keep the am I have to power the sub, correct? So I would use the LFP on the amp I have?

Set up properly, the thing could sound great. Your deck is a great performer, BTW. 2.5V preouts are OK, and Panasonic are generally excellent sound quality.

Great, I have something half way decent :)

I'm a little fuzzy on how it all strings together though.

Is it:
HU ---preout---> Current Amp ---> sub
HU ---preout---> New 4 channel Amp ---> fronts and rears

How do the mirror tweets mix into this? And do you have a brand suggests for the kick panel speakers? Is much gained by modifying the kick panel and putting a larger/non-oem speaker in there? As stated, I'm less afraid of hacking things up than I am about spending money :)

[StereoInstaller1]

You aren't fuzzy at all, you have a clear grasp.

"audio god" is bullshit I generally don't give a crap about, BTW. Lets make your car sound good, OK?

That kenwood is fine, BTW. It is all about adjustability, and that Kenwood does just fine.

I was thinking more like craigslist or something from a buddy...if you can find $200, buy the 5 channel PPI from sonicelectronix.com.

Luke

[Earendil]

So let me see if I can put 2 and 2 together here :)

The idea behind your suggestion is two fold:
1. With proper hardware, narrowing the frequency band that each speaker has to deal with will improve the sound. That improvement will be better or close to buying new speakers.
2. A 4 or 5 channel amp is the way to go down the road, so might as well add that to my setup now for expandability purposes.

Does this sound correct?

I have just one more question that would be an easy answer if I knew someone in person who gave a shiet about their audio. My experience with "Preout" ports is that they have a static power output. If that's the case with my HU, how is the volume adjusted with most of these amps? This part puzzles me, and if complicated could play into the design a lot. I'm hoping it's a brain dead simple solution that I just don't understand yet.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that if I can pick up an Alpine MRV-F352 for $100 that I should.

[StereoInstaller1]

Yeah, that Alpine is 150W RMS on bass, it is kinda gutless, but certainly sounds good.

For $100, sure, just count on moving it to the girlfriends car later.

Oh, and on the RCAs, that is just the stage before the decks internal amp. It varies with the volume control, bass, treble, balance, fader, etc. The amp receives that audio signal from the deck and "amplifies" it, simple stuff in todays magic.

Crossovers (AKA as "High Pass" and "Low Pass" filters) are found on many decks and most all of todays amplifiers. Our car needs a little different setup than most, so having decent adjustability is kinda crucial.

[Earendil]

Yeah, that Alpine is 150W RMS on bass, it is kinda gutless, but certainly sounds good.
For $100, sure, just count on moving it to the girlfriends car later.

Ha! :)
So I've read around here that Watts aren't where it's at. It seems like Audio suffers from the "mhz myth" that plagued the computer industry for a while. So from a level headed person such as your self, what is a good RMS watt value to solidly power the standard speakers? How about for an average bass? I'm certainly okay with keeping my bass to myself while driving out on the streets, so perhaps gutless is right up my ally :)

Oh, and on the RCAs, that is just the stage before the decks internal amp. It varies with the volume control, bass, treble, balance, fader, etc. The amp receives that audio signal from the deck and "amplifies" it, simple stuff in todays magic.

Okay, cool. That makes perfect design sense. I've just seen some "Pre-outs" in other hardware applications that had a static output. I got confused :)

Crossovers (AKA as "High Pass" and "Low Pass" filters) are found on many decks and most all of todays amplifiers. Our car needs a little different setup than most, so having decent adjustability is kinda crucial.

Now HPF and LPF make sense to me. Drags up some bad memories of electronics classes, but I know what they are. And that a "Crossover" in audio terms is really just a HPF/LPF is quite helpful. I was trying to apply the term to actually "crossing" audio somehow. Naturally I became quite . Now i know better :)

So it sounds like I'll blow my budget on a good 4 or 5 channel amp. If I get a 5 channel and the bass channel is too "gutless" for me, I can always keep the base on the current amp which has more than enough power for that base.
If this does not raise the sound quality to a satisfactory level, or if I figure out that my kicker panel speakers really are shot, than I'll go for new component speakers up front.

One more quick question.
In the Premium sound system, the kick panel speakers had a build in crossover of sorts that the mirror tweeters plugged into, correct? Even though the wiring and the ports are there on the standard speakers, is that crossover still built in? I added the mirror tweeters and popped them right in before I knew what component speakers and crossovers were. Now I'm wondering if I have the hardware there to make them work properly or not...

[318Joe]

So it sounds like I'll blow my budget on a good 4 or 5 channel amp. If I get a 5 channel and the bass channel is too "gutless" for me, I can always keep the base on the current amp which has more than enough power for that base.
If this does not raise the sound quality to a satisfactory level, or if I figure out that my kicker panel speakers really are shot, than I'll go for new component speakers up front.

There is no free lunch. Cheap lunch, yes. Bought by a friend, yes. Free, no.

If'n you have to buy something, that amp Luke recommended is as cheap as it gets. There are cheaper, but most either don't have the adjustability this car desires, or they are crap components, or both. That PPI amp has a twin from another brand (same manufacturer probably) but the price is higher. With free shipping it is a deal you will talk about when it expires.

There was a link Luke posted to a set of components speakers that were only $40 - that is as cheap as that gets for new. http://www.teptronics.com/s5c.html

Now this all assumes you are finicky about your car sound. And by finicky I mean that you would, and do, turn off your radio and listen to road noise rather than suffer through weak audio. It is a curse, an affliction.

In the Premium sound system, the kick panel speakers had a build in crossover of sorts that the mirror tweeters plugged into, correct? Even though the wiring and the ports are there on the standard speakers, is that crossover still built in? I added the mirror tweeters and popped them right in before I knew what component speakers and crossovers were. Now I'm wondering if I have the hardware there to make them work properly or not...

You do not.

The crossover is on the 5 1/4 premium speaker. the high pass is soldered in and the low pass uses the speaker frame as support, so it is not really removable. They are still available at the self serve wrecking yards, but you might have to find a fresh car as the word is out and they go quick. However, the kick panel premiums are usually left behind.

Get the amp. It is within your budget and a quality piece. A set of premium kick speakers should be cheap enough at the pick and pull or ebay, should you need them.

[s_ribs]

Set up the high pass at about 120Hz for front, about 80Hz for the rear (which you will need to turn WAY down compared to the front)

Funny I keep reading everyone having the rears overpower the fronts. I have to turn my front stage down if there's any chance of realizing that the rears are doing anything at all.

[Earendil]

I'm still hunting for an amp, but in the mean time I cleaned up my sound a little bit.

Installed the premium kick panel speakers out of my "is" parts car. The right side premium speaker doesn't work, but the crossover does, so I installed in anyway. I need the high end more than the mid.

The amp I have in the trunk just has a turn knob that goes from 40-400hz. No indication of where things are in between. However, I can produce a frequency easily enough, so I set the output at 80hz and twisted that knob until the bass was noticeably dimmer.

With the ability to produce a frequency between 16-20,000hz, I decided to test the rest of my system. Sure enough the back speakers bottom out at about 110hz. They buzz and rattle all the way down to about 60hz or so. I can see how it would be helpful to cut these suckers off at 120 :)

The front premium speaker was able to handle the lower frequencies with more grace. I played with the front-back balance, and the knocked the internal bass down to a nice compromising level. With good volume to the rest of the speakers I can go down through the range without the back speakers giving me a lot of grief. That said, I'd love to tune this system with a proper amp and a high pass filter!

Thanks for all the help and advice. You certainly got me started on the right track, and gave me some great starting points. I feel I know enough now to absorb more info without too much confusion. Always helps to have a solid framework to stick new knowledge into! :)

Cheers!

[Addissimo]

I've got a great condition JL e6450 if you're interested. It's really an amazing am with great sound. I was using it to run my front sound stage (Adire Koda 6.5 + Seas neo tweeters) and it produces amazing sound.

http://www.audiogearreviews.com/reviews/amplifiers/review-JLAudio_E6450.asp

its incredibly flexible, and will give you plenty of headroom for the future.

$150 + shipping if you're interested.

-Addis