Stereo System Opinions

[David_Yost]

OK...so how does one differentiate between what is "adequate" vs. "AMAZING!!!"?

Shit...I don't know. If I can put someone in a room, have them listen and watch their expressions, I can nail it almost immediately. I can describe the numbers, but that is meaningless for most folks.

Since I am familliar with most every musical type out there, I can dig through someones CD (or media files, whatever) collection and design from that.

But on the web, in a forum...who can accurately decide these things?

I listen to Blues, Jazz and 70's funk. When sitting in a Wendys fast food joint, I own the entire CD of most every song that comes on. My CD collection is about 2500 CD's of damn near every category I know of, except Opera.

Fuck Opera.

I like some decent thump in my music, but I am not willing to give up much room, nor am I willing to tolerate excess weight, other than my belly.

I like full bass extension, but what I considered adequate, but just barely, Jordan thought was too much, too big.

In general, a single 10" in a very well designed ported box running on about 150 RMS watts makes about 120 DB at 25Hz, in our cars. In general, you can distingiush the individual key notes on the beginning of Madonna's "Vogue", or discren the individual keystrokes of synthesizer bass on Enya's "Watermark" disc. Clarity means you can tell kick drum from bass guitar, even doubled.

What I was talking about with the Memphis stuff was including a box. Ask Jordan (or whoever bought Jordans box) what they think of my work...the one I am gonna be selling here on R3V will be far better fitting, and include a "Pretty Panel" in matching trunk carpet. Most shops would charge about $400 for the box and panel. All MDF, of course. My car will be the test mule.

Port and woofer will vent through the ski hole, trunk tar in place. Box output will be 100% sealed into the interior of the car...boom outside the vehicle will be minimal with the windows up.

The gear would be Power Reference line...as good as most brands, far superior to quite a few, and cheap.

M Class would be nicer, but WAY more money. Maybe go there in a quieter car, when you wanna spend more money.

Anyway, I hope I have answered at least some questions.

Luke

Well basically I wanted a nice-sounding system without getting the top of the line. I mean basically what I meant was I care about car audio, but I also care about money. The Power Reference amps seem to be what I'd be looking at, and I'll keep my eye out for that subwoofer/box you're planning, it sounds as if it's going to be great! For the front speakers I think I'll plan on Infinity Referense 5.25 Components.

Thank you very much for all your help Luke!
- David

[DSchultz325e]

I'm gonna have to be the odd man out here and go against the grain, much like mikeinsanmarcos did a while back. Anyway, what I want to say is there might be a more cost-effective option to just throw a sealed box together. Also, I don't care how many people bow down to Luke and take his word as the word of an audio god or whatever, I think it's a suitable alternative.

I still believe, and most true audiophiles believe the same, that the most sonically accurate enclosures are sealed. Why? You don't even need to listen to a ported enclosure at all to understand that as the frequency being played approaches the tuning point of the enclosure, the woofer lets the port take over the output. Do you buy a subwoofer to listen to a piece of pipe huff wind? Do you believe you can get a piece of pipe to sound as good or even close to a speaker? This is all subjective, but I say no.

I understand how enclosures work, and I am not preaching the "sealed box" gospel here or anything, I'm just letting you know where each enclosure has its suited application. Now, some woofers are meant for sealed and some are meant for ported, and some even let you choose what you like. You are able to figure this out through the specs, but anyway. What I see in Luke's case is a tragic love with the ported enclosure due to past successes with it feeding an overgrowing confidence, and he has grown to the point where he automatically prescribes a port in every install just because it's the familiar, easy path.

Now, I'm not saying ported enclosures are inferior to sealed enclosures totally, because where they do excel is in efficiency and the apparent +3dB output over the sealed given the same woofer. 3dB is considerable, and sealed boxes constructed to net 0.707 Qtc (technical mumbo-jumbo, but basically means the measurement that many believe gives flattest response) are not meant to be loud. Disregarding music for a second, assume you go to a movie and you hear thundering bass. This is coming from a guaranteed ported enclosure, because you want these lower frequencies to be loud. The ported enclosure gives you loud. Loud bass is more impressive, period. If you want loud and reasonably flat but not necessarily the deepest the woofer can play, and are willing to give up the space to fit a ported enclosure, you go for the ported enclosure. Argue all you want about anything else, but you can not argue the sealed box will extend deeper than the ported enclosure. Why? Regardless of how much power you feed it, under the tuning point the port will destroy all bass due to whatever the speaker tries to compress the port allows it to cancel.

Do you not really care about the lower octaves? Do you want bass as loud as it can get and then a sudden plummet of output under a certain frequency? If yes to both of these, go for the ported.

If you care to have the woofer be able to naturally play and space is not something you have a lot of, then go for the sealed. Also, in order to get the sealed to match the output of the ported enclosure down to the tuning point, it usually means buying the next larger size woofer up. But, you are able to not only match the output, you are also able to hear the bottom octaves as well, and not have to worry about the necessary subsonic filter to stop the woofer from bottoming out if the frequency dips under the tuning point.

Weigh your options. Also, the size of the woofer has absolutely shit to do with how "tight" or "fast" it is. Why people believe this is certainly pointing at poorly constructed enclosures that are too small and result in muddy, sloppy, one-note wonder peaky bass output. Construct two enclosures for an 8" woofer and a 15" woofer to recommended specs, and the only differences WILL be lower extension and output. Transient response WILL BE THE SAME. I can't stand it when people don't understand the whole "smaller woofers are faster" bullshit is a fallacy. Build the box right, and assuming the woofer isn't a piece of trash, it will sound good.

So that's my little dissertation on subwoofer enclosure applications. I'm not telling you to go for either, but nobody has ever had any reasonable information to show WHY you might want to go for a sealed box. All I see is "OK get a 10 because it's faster and tighter than a 12 and get a port because Luke says so." Choose a woofer, and if you can provide me with the Thiele/Small parameters, I can let you know what enclosure the woofer is more suited for, or if you can go either route.

Hopefully everyone here has learned something about this subject.

[BMWguy]

Thanks for the lesson David... I didn't know that ported boxes were automatically 3dB louder than sealed...

I have a JL 10W3 in the factory SEALED pro-wedge box and I LOVE IT... I have always thought that sealed boxes sounded cleaner... so thats why I went with the setup I have... but thats just the opinoin of an amateur car stereo installer...

[DSchultz325e]

It can actually be far more if you factor in cabin gain, but Luke has that fairly sorted so it's not a huge issue for his applications. I would suspect the install Jordan had sounded fantastic, barring the MB Quart tweeters :)

I have and probably will always run a sealed box, but mainly because the woofers I run aren't meant for ported application. Ideally what is supposed to happen is the ~12db/octave cabin gain you have should be nullified by the 12db/octave rolloff of the sealed enclosure, resulting in a flat frequency response from the subwoofer. This is another thing I like.

[BMWguy]

It can actually be far more if you factor in cabin gain, but Luke has that fairly sorted so it's not a huge issue for his applications. I would suspect the install Jordan had sounded fantastic, barring the MB Quart tweeters :)

I have and probably will always run a sealed box, but mainly because the woofers I run aren't meant for ported application. Ideally what is supposed to happen is the ~12db/octave cabin gain you have should be nullified by the 12db/octave rolloff of the sealed enclosure, resulting in a flat frequency response from the subwoofer. This is another thing I like.

I LOVE my MB's... (both sets) what you got against them?

[DSchultz325e]

It's my personal opinion the tweeters are a bit too bright.

[808BMW]

It's my personal opinion the tweeters are a bit too bright.

Haha, if they're just a bit too bright, then I'd say the sun is a nightlight.

I guess they sound good playing rap from 50 ft. away, but honestly the word shrill comes to mind anything closer.

[silversleeper]

What if you dont have a ski hole, how can you let the air flow better? In my car, without the ski hole, the bass just rattles the shit out of the trunk and rear deck.

Also, are there any nice 10's that can go low, clean, without hesitation (farting:))?

[BMWguy]

What if you dont have a ski hole, how can you let the air flow better? In my car, without the ski hole, the bass just rattles the shit out of the trunk and rear deck.

Also, are there any nice 10's that can go low, clean, without hesitation (farting:))?

Ball your fist up and beat the shit out of it like a red-headed step child... the "ski hole" that is, ... not the sub... it will come out... they all do...

my JL goes to the 60 mhrtz that the crossover is set at w/o any "farting" sound... sounds like you got something wrong with your system...

I have heard the "bright" comment from quite a few people about MB Quartz'... I know what you're saying but I LOVE that...

[DSchultz325e]

What if you dont have a ski hole, how can you let the air flow better? In my car, without the ski hole, the bass just rattles the shit out of the trunk and rear deck.

Also, are there any nice 10's that can go low, clean, without hesitation (farting:))?

Take the rear speakers out. I punched my ski hole and removed them, but covered the holes with the stock grills. Much better! :)

[marakka]

David..... You have to remember you are talking about people that have an untuned ear. People who think that $59 Wal-Mart Kenwood Coax's sound good. Yes you are right about the rolloff after XX hz with a ported enclosure. But to most..... people think that muddy sloppy bass is the shit. Throwing all this technical mumbo jumbo out there for people to comprehend is a bit much on this forum. I've had mixed experiences with both sealed and ported enclosures. I chose to run sealed due to the simplicity of the issue. Most people don't understand how to tune a ported box and just assume that a box is a box.

Luke tells it how it is as if you were in his shop and he was gonna sell you some equipment. I'm the same way. But to each his own.


And you are damn right about MB being bright. Col. Sanders ain't got shit on em.... they's crispy baby.