Starting issue

[foofopps]

My car takes like 5 seconds to start when it is warm, not hot, not cold, just warm! Im so pissed my car starts just fine in the morning at 50-55 degrees out, then at work or class it sits in the sun all day for about 8 hours its like 65-70, when I come out to start it it takes 5 to start. These cock suckers from my class were laughing at me and it really pissed me off. The car has always done this since I have had it for almost a year. I have replaced, plugs (from the stealer), AFM, coil, coolant temp sensor, and the main fuel pump (by the drivers side rocker). Now Im sick of replacing shit and getting zero results. This is an intermittent problem. I just checked for intake for leaks with a can of starter spray and got no results. Im like 99% percent sure this is a fuel issue, pressing the gas during starting makes starting easier but it still cranks several times before starting up. It seems like im getting too much fuel, when it starts sometimes it stumbles and runs poopy for a few seconds, at this point I 'think' its burning off the excess fuel, or maybe not getting enough fuel... Im pretty sure its gotta be the in-tank fuel pump or clogged/sticky injectors. Im leaning towards it being the injectors.
Questions:
What the hell do you think?
My car is an 87is build date is 12/86 so it does have both fuel pumps correct?
Who knows what they are talking about when it comes to injectors, How could the injectors only be acting up during start up, but not all the time?, has this happend to other people?
After my car starts it runs just fine, I have no drivability problems what so ever. Thanks in advance.

[2.5-12]

I am struggling with this exact issue, soooo irritating.

Im swapping pumps (both) soon, if that doesnt work, Im getting new injectors.

which ECU do you have?

[foofopps]

i have 173, did it with the stock chip and still does with the Jim C, I just got another 173 from the junk yard, figured id try it just to eliminate that possibility then sell it. keep me updated...

[2.5-12]

I swapped to a 380 and the car starts quicker now, but the car still has the symptoms,

after I swap pumps, etc. I'll let you know if it gets better.

[foofopps]

If I were you id just replace the in-tank since I got no change from replacing the main one.

[Cyrix2k]

does it smell like gas when it doesn't start? Your motor has a "cold start" injector, right? I wonder if it's flooding?

[jlevie]

No M20B25 engined car has a cold start valve. That is only found on an M20B27 (ETA).

The most common cause of problems described is an intake leak. Find a shop that has a smoke machine and have the intake smoke tested. There are other possibilities, but until intake leaks are ruled out there is not point in considering the alternatives.

[foofopps]

If it was an intake leak wouldn't my engine respond to me spraying starter fluid all over the intake seals and hoses? Aren't intake leaks most noticable when the the engine is cold and not warm? Im pretty sure Im running rich and not lean, wouldn't an intake leak make my car run lean? I appreciate the info but Im fairly certain its not an intake leak its way too intermittent. It happens most frequently if the engine had run earlier that day and the 2nd time around starting that day is when I get the issue.

[jlevie]

If it was an intake leak wouldn't my engine respond to me spraying starter fluid all over the intake seals and hoses? Aren't intake leaks most noticable when the the engine is cold and not warm? Im pretty sure Im running rich and not lean, wouldn't an intake leak make my car run lean? I appreciate the info but Im fairly certain its not an intake leak its way too intermittent. It happens most frequently if the engine had run earlier that day and the 2nd time around starting that day is when I get the issue.

Not necessarily. There are quite a few possible leak locations and several small leaks that are hard to find visually or with carb cleaner and add up to a major leak. The complete list of possible causes of an intake leak is:

Intake boot
Throttle body gasket
ICV hoses & connections
Brake booster, hoses, and connections
Crank case breather hose
Evaporative control hoses, valve, and expansion tank
Fuel pressure regulator & hose
Injector seals
Valve cover gaskets & bungs
Oil filler cap
Dip stick o-rings
Oil return tube o-rings

Because there are so many possibilities the best diagnostic is a smoke test

While not intuitively obvious, intake leaks can cause the engine to run rich. The DME adapts to the way the engine runs. Small intake leaks that primarily affect only part of the engine's operation can cause the DME to learn to use richer mixture.

There are other possibilities, like invalid fuel pressure, leaking or dirty injectors, a dodgy AFM, aged O2 sensor, etc. But until you know that there are no intake leaks there is little point in considering the alternatives. Well, except for the O2 sensor. The useful life of an O2 sensor is not more than 100k. So if that appilies it should be immediately replaced.

[foofopps]

Im really frustrated, so my car started just fine this morning, ambient temp was like 55 degrees, when I go to start my car at 4:30 its about 80 degrees out and it was the hardest its been to start, it started up after about 5 full seconds, I had to rev it up, then I let it idle and it died, I had to start it up again, took another 5 seconds, rev'd it up a little bit more and it was fine, after that its completely normal, im so pissed with the inconsistancy of this fucking problem.

It seems to really have to do with the ambient temperature because I did not have this problem all winter. Cold engine + hot/warm outside = my car acting like a piece of shit only on start up.

[2.5-12]

strange. mine, the hotter the better for starting. still isnt great though

you get a new in-tank pump yet?

[foofopps]

no, I was waiting for you to and see what the results were :p

I might try m50 injectors, that way if its doesn't fix they problem at least they are a decent upgrade.

[foofopps]

Fuck it, I dropped my car off at B&D in Westchester, IL today, Ben is the shit and he will fix it for a good price. I was talking with his old man today and from what I was describing he was thinking it could be the crank sensor, or FPR, when I talked to Ben about it he was thinking maybe the injectors as he had just replaced injectors on his car and he said it made a huge difference. I'll let you know when I find out what the problem is.

[2.5-12]

I'm doing my pump soon, dont worry! lol

my car has started to behave quite well when its cold -- I vote you try a 380DME, thats the only thing I have changed so far and... it made a difference!

and yes, Injectors make an enormous difference. mine are 240K old and they suck.

[Need4Speed1299]

You guys have to understand that I have just did this swap and have inspected or replaced everything. My crankshaft position sensor seems to be faulty and throwing me off. I have the 173 ecu.

I got the car running by jumping the coil. The car ran great while I had it up in the air and ready to add coolant. I turned off the car because I still needed to put the alternator/water pump belt on. I double and triple checked that the car would start up again, boom, running every time. I got the belt on and went to add coolant with the car running and then I had to check my spark again. None.

I believe my transfer pump is not turning on. It worked just fine with my ETA setup. I am getting fuel from the in-tank pump. Is it possible that the 2.7i needs something extra to run it? It smells like gas when I turn it over.

Lastly, for the 2.7i setup, there are extra wires in the glovebox with connectors. Do these need any type of modification?