Announcement

**DarkWing6** · 05-29-2006, 04:02 PM

Terrible job. Send it to me and I will properly dispose of it. :D

Looks good! :up:

**sweetride01** · 05-29-2006, 04:15 PM

Yes my mechanic seems quite knowledgeable... this definately isn't the first job he's done. :D

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 04:37 PM

not bad but....fuel atomization is not really a concern with the injectors so close to the chambers...this is a myth (sort of) that is carried over from doing P&P on CARBED motors where the fuel is comming in at the end of the intake man and must travel all the way through the man and head into the port. so smooth out the casting texture also. go to an art supply store and get some internal calipers (around $10-$15) set them to the ID of the ports and use that to check the ports to see if they are the same shape accross the board in all the ports all the way through to the valve seat. next get some plexiglass drill and cut it so you can use it to block off the ports of both the intake and exhaust on the head. now take the head and reassemble it. get a large c.c. syrenge (sp) and fill it w/ ATF drill a hole in the center so you can inject the ATF and fill up the port and keep track of how much is used to fill each port. you should be with in 5-10cc of each other on the intake (all 6) and the same on the exhaust (all 6). kinda anal, but a good way to make sure they are equal volume. if they are way off adjust the port size until close.
NEXT...blend the seats to the port. take 2 junk valves, drop them in to protect the seat, and blend the port floor to the top of the seat (make them level to each other. this is for flame travel and a more complete burn travel (timing also effects this, but you should already know that). after that SMOOTH out the corners where the factory machineing stops and starts. this DOES NOT mean go crazy and redesign the chamber!!!!!! just take off the sharp edge at the transition. the reason for doing this is to eliminate a possable hot spot or preignition spot. just a little DON'T GO CRAZY!!!!!. next smooth out the factory casting marks (roughness) in the rest of the port. AGAIN SMOOTH NOT RESHAPE OR REDESIGN!!!!!!!. next take more plexi cut it to cover the chamber , drill a hole in the center again for the ATF. reassemble the head and install the spark plugs. take your plexi cover and smear grease around the edges where it goes against the head. this makes a seal for the ATF so it doesn't leak and you get an accurate reading. fill the chamber with ATF and record the amount that it took to fill each one. repeat 5 more times. you will want to get these within 1cc or less of each other. adjust accordingly until you are happy and they are within 1cc of each other. when you grind the chamber to adjust the cc's of the chambers take the "meat" (a little at a time) from the area where you removed the factory casting marks in the chamber. this will have the least effect on the flame travel while allowing you to correct the cc difference.
do all that and you will have a pro P&P job (with out flowbench testing) and the satisfaction of having done it yourself
hope this helps, it looks like you are almost there, just finish up the job to get the most out of your hard work!!
greg

greg

**sweetride01** · 05-29-2006, 05:00 PM

Wow greg, sounds like you have done this several times before. If you read my post above, you see I did none of it myself.... I'm just trusting he knows what he's doing. :D But your detailed finishing procedure certainly seems to make sense. Perhaps I will send him a link to the thread... I presume, however, that all the ports currently have more or less the same volume.

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 05:56 PM

when i started the reply there was no responces (slow to write out the detailed responce i guess). if he has experence they should be close. usually when people first try to do it the can get a little crazy with the grinder and push it into the port, not letting the tool do the work. it is slower going that way , but it will keep the shape of the port intact. it goes faster if you put a ton of pressure on the bit/tool, but you run the risk of changing the shape of the port unless you have experence. make sure he finishes the job and does the chambers too. it is time consuming to finish the job compoletely i know, but you will see the full benifits of the work. if you don't you may be disappointed with all the work and $ spent; and be saying " well it's....teh....better than before" and you may experence some flat spots in the powerband and maybe some loss of low or mid or top end power (everything works together to make a complete package and usually it is one of them not all of them). one thing to concider when you correct the cc's of the chambers is that you will be adding cc's to the chamber there by lowering the compression ratio SLIGHTLY. this is usually not a real problem since the head's mating surface is usually decked (slight clean-up cut or plaining) there by raising the compression ratio slightly. so it will usually cancel out each other and stay the same. is this your only mod? if you don't already have one you will prob need a chip to make everything happy again. as far as who's i can't help you there, (i use piggyback stand alone) but tell the supplier your mods so he can give it the proper fuel and timing curve for your set up. i would also upgrade your intake low restriction filter or cold air with an isolator so you don't suck in hot engine air, and upgrade your exhaust with headers (long tube or shorties of a decent quality). delete your cat, and invest in some kind of a high flow cat back that wont make you sound like a ricer. deleteing your cat WILL make your car LOUDER though ( and is illeagal in some states if you get caught) so take that into concideration before doing that. you can use either smooth bore glasspacks or a lowrestriction baffle plate design muffler inplace of the cat and it will give it a nice mellow rumble w/o the ricer rassberries. the reason for the baffle plate design is that a muffler with packing for sound control will burn out quicker from the unburnt gas and you will loose the effects of it. the baffle plate has no packing to burn out. and yes, i used to do this for side $ on lots of different make heads for people. i wish i still had the time to do it, there is a nice sence of satisfaction when you see some one with one of your heads and they tell you how nice it is and how happy they are with the results. i recently ran in to a rabbit (A-1) that was on it's 3rd owner since the head was done ( i had also however ended up rebuilding the long block for the person when he got a rod knock before he could get the head on) and he couldn't stop telling me how happy he was with how strong the motor was...the rest of the car was a different story, but not my doing
greg

**1991 318is** · 05-29-2006, 06:18 PM

Porting and stuff.

To get on the edge you have to do the head and intake on a flow bench. The head can be perfect by itself but when you bolt on the intake different stuff starts to happen. I try to visualize the intake ports as running from the last common area to the cylinder and the headers as being an extension of the exhaust ports.
I know the owners of a porting service that does R&D for a top NASCAR team. They get 300 sets of heads at a time to try different stuff with. They have different heads, intakes, and headers for different tracks.
Short of that, probably the best thing is to match the ports to the gaskets and smooth out any gross stuff and go with it.
Nice looking work in the photos. Especially for the time spent.

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 06:49 PM

i know that a flow bench is IDEAL, but i'll let you in on a little secret, most don't do a flow bench test unless you ask them for flow #'s. they just use the caliper/ cc method, unless it is some radical change in design for the head. port matching the head is good enough for the intake. you can always get the intake extrude honed , but this always seems to make the runners TOOOOOOO large, and loose you low end power and just give top end gains and create drivabilty problems. i think that it may be difficult to control how much is taken out of the port w/o just making it smooth all the way though. doing the work that you have done you aren't going to be trying to design a head for each driving situation AND cam combo (you will need the lift and duration #'s for the flowbench #'s) or maybe you are?????? and being a street car you can run any combo you want w/o a racing body telling you what you can and can't run, so no giant need to try to find every last bit of hidden hp in the head or tayloring it to a specific situation.

**sweetride01** · 05-29-2006, 06:55 PM

greg -
when you say do the chambers, you are referring to your earlier advice about getting rid of that excess "ridged" material on the head, inside the chamber, making sure that each chamber has the same volume?
The injectors are being remanufactured, and new spark plugs being put in. Also a Schrick 284/272 cam with performance springs. I have a Jim C chip right now, so that may need to be remapped a little.
Exhaust will come at a later time though, due to cost. Of course, I realise that it is neccesary to get maximum optimization out of the p/p job.

Thanks for all the advice. I will be sure to let Thomas know what a good job you think he has done.

Another port pic - they look pretty even:

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 07:35 PM

like in the pic you have marked "shinny ports" he has removed the excess material from behind the valve seat going into the intake and exhaust ports, but if you look at the seats in the "combustion chamber" ( big bowl shape that sits opposite of the piston when you have it bolted to the block) you can see there is a little "lip" around the valve seat (raised alum around the steel/iron seats. this is an impesence to flow/flame travel. try to think of everything as water flowing down hill in a stream, it flows smoothly and flattly (i don't know if that is a real word though) with a smooth bottom and churns and ripples when it goes over rocks (also slows down the rate of flow) removing that is "blending the seats". also just make the bumpy part of the chamber (around the spark plug) the same smoothness as the machined portions *(this is also where you grind to make your corrections on cc's). as far as the intake/exhaust ports i usually go ahead and make them both shinny with 3-m "scotchbrite" pads for deburing (mac tools sell a kit with these for around $30 i think it is under brake rebuilding stuff) so i can see for sure there is no imperfections/divits, them go back with a med/fine flap wheel to give it some texture for swirl/ turbulance in the port. the reason for the SLIGHTLY rough finish is not really for fuel atomization (as some people will tell you) on a FI motor (unless you have a chevy w/ TBI) it is because air flows faster over air than a surface. same principal they use on sail boats...water flows faster over water than the hull of the boat.
also don't worry if the opening of each port isn't exactly perfect to each other, it wont make a big difference and it is hard not to do unless you have machined steel "guide plates" to make sure that they are exactly the same...important in RACING...not so much within reason on a street car.
9 1/2 hours really isn't too bad for time spent on the P&P job either it used toi take me at least a good weekend if i was really motivated. i hope that makes thing clearer to you. if not ask again and i will try to answer.
greg

**sweetride01** · 05-29-2006, 07:52 PM

Yea, I though that that is what you were saying about the "seat blending". I have linked my mechanic to this thread so he can review the comments - you've certainly helped me to understand p&p though. Thanks greg!

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 08:01 PM

no problem, i am always ready to share my knowledge/experence with others...... "cause knowledge is power....and knowing is half the battle"..GI JOE :nice:
greg

**der affe** · 05-29-2006, 08:19 PM

as long as you have the head off you can "index" the plugs too. tighten them in the head and make sure that the electrode ground is not infront of the direction of the flame travel. behind is ideal, but off to the side is ok too. that way it is not blocking the "spark" from it's ignition source, a very small possable gain in power, but a free one none the less. when you have the head on just make a paralel (sorry i can't spell today) mark at the top on the plug so you will know where the ground is when you put in the plug. AND don't make the chambers look like chrome like jordan did on his head!!! this will affect the chamber turbulance and flame travel in a negative way and is a huge waste of time (although his therory was good), but you can do the same thing i suggested with the ports and go back and give it a slightly rough texture. remember you are not an engineer though no crazy redesigning of the chamber!! only remove a little bit.
greg
ps. i am officially a grease monkey!!! i am soooo honored!!!

**sweetride01** · 05-29-2006, 08:55 PM

LOL and I am an E30 addict now... so cool... it's true though.

And yes, I saw pics of Jordans shiny port job, and while it looked cool, my mechanic gave me a little flak for even mentioning it - I guess you both agree that it is not a good idea, and from your explanation, it makes sense.

**e30 gangsta** · 05-30-2006, 12:12 AM

How much was the head work? I want a pp and 3 angle grind. How much did the pp cost you?

Announcement

How is this Port/Polish? (Maybe no 56K)

How is this Port/Polish? (Maybe no 56K)

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment