E30 M3 S62 Build - Loads of queries about 4x4 drivtrains

[Turk]

can you post some pics of your axles and spline adapters?

Cheers

[Turk]

OK, going back to the oil pump issue:

Where the sump directional valves enter the pump they leave a massive gaping hole either side of the pump


Now although there is a main pick up point I don't know whether or not these 2 holes need to be blocked up, reduced down to a lower size to adapt the suction of oil etc?

I need to know if anyone has tried an M62 (or alike) oil pump in an S62 with success!

The fact I'm using the x5 sump makes one assume the logical step to take is to use the mating pump. Question is does it pick up the same amount of oil? Does it have the same size *chain and sprocket*? as this would change the gearing of the internals and potentially reduce the suction Rate of the oil.

Advice appreciated!

[Jonsku]

Crazy projects going on, it'll be very interesting to see what comes out of these. :)


Have you gave thought to using e.g. Audi AWD system from older Quattros? They're very good, though for sure need *some* fabbing to fit.

Another question is that have you test-fitted the engine to E30 engine bay with iX subframe and X5 oilpan.. the engine might be way too back (meaning lots and lots of firewall modifications).

I've *never* heard of a turbo guy breaking a transfercase. I've heard of countless front E30 diffs breaking though. If you've heard of one, you'd be the first. ;)

There's one M20 iX turbo (+500hp) in Finland with basically all E34 iX parts and special CV joints (they'll be a problem as well, original E30 items won't last long and cost a fortune). Transfer case has been overhauled, but other than that only the driveshafts and diffs have been broken.

Immaculate, Concours-quality M3's with low mileage and complete maintenance records top out between $20K and $30K.

Add 100k to the sum and then you're near the cost of the real good E30 M3's (at least the special editions such as Cecotto and Sport Evo II). With $20k you don't get a good M3, at least here in Europe..

I need to know if anyone has tried an M62 (or alike) oil pump in an S62 with success!

The fact I'm using the x5 sump makes one assume the logical step to take is to use the mating pump. Question is does it pick up the same amount of oil? Does it have the same size *chain and sprocket*? as this would change the gearing of the internals and potentially reduce the suction Rate of the oil.

Advice appreciated!

I would imagine that the X5 4.8iS engine oil-demand is not too different from S62 oil requirements so you *should* be well of with normal X5 oil-pump..

[Turk]

Got home today and had a couple of pressies waiting for me :D
Wont be able to do anything with them for a few weeks, but will get some measuring done to see what scale of modifications need to be made to make it fit.

[goarmy]

Nice bell housing
I cant send pic of the spline adapter right now sorry but I will. I know a great shop that can make you a custom drive shaft to tolorate what ever hp you like . Iam running a axle shaft with 27 or 28 spline very cheap and easy to find with a 36spline adapter cant quite remember how many splines it was exactly we counted but it was about 36 to the hub it was cheaper to me to use that shaft and make the adapters. They can make it with or without abs ring.
As for the T-case nando, yes Iam very aware of bmw gearing choice over weight distribution 34% and 64% to rear.
I still like to see the 525ix planetary gears and the engaging and disingaging ,since this was brought up I gave a few checks and found my tcase with a short circuit :( anyway did a rotation check all 3 sides rotation was smoothe all 3 sides were at 1:1 open.. the short circuit gives another reason to open this thing up might have to change the coil... I will start work on it shortly today.

[Turk]

So I have been measuring today and some positive points to report:

The getrag output and e34 Tcase input are the same size, so nice and easy to bolt up.
This gave me a chance to look at the gap in between and figure out what size metal plate to go and buy. By looks of it it pretty much dead on 30mm gap. This just happened to be the exact size of the rubber guibo. however don't want to lose that so 30mm plate it is. A nice strong mounting point for the tcase.








The bell housing is also an interesting talking point. The depth of the v8 bell housing is 173mm deep, the pics shows it slightly more but after checking 3 time its 173. The getrag's is 169mm. This is good :D Based on the depth of the clutch and flywheel it looks like the getrags input shaft is going to be long enough for the job. I will however have to use a 240mm E30 m3 Friction disk (a tough one). The s62's disc diameter is 240mm at least and I'm hoping the m3's is the same. I do know e36 m3 disks are 240mm.





I was hoping to use the s62 flywheel and clutch pressure plate, However i think the bulkiness of the dual mass flywheel could be an issue. The outer edge of flywheel seems to catch on the bell housing.
Being an auto housing Im not quite sure of the differences in sizes of the internals. This should stop me though as I can use a lightweight flywheel, 540i flywheel and any 240mm clutch pressure plate.

One thing I haven't been able to locate is a decent concentric slave cylinder, Until I get the bell housing bolted up to the engine i can't determine how much movement it will need to release the clutch.

If anyone can let me know of a brand I can look up it will be appreciated

Look forward to some comments and suggestions!

[Jonsku]

The getrag output and e34 Tcase input are the same size, so nice and easy to bolt up.
This gave me a chance to look at the gap in between and figure out what size metal plate to go and buy. By looks of it it pretty much dead on 30mm gap. This just happened to be the exact size of the rubber guibo. however don't want to lose that so 30mm plate it is. A nice strong mounting point for the tcase.

Upper part seems very good indeed. Is there similar attachment point available for lower bolts? Just to make sure, that is a V8 5-speed box in the pictures or some other.. ? Or have I mixed things up? :)

The s62's disc diameter is 240mm at least and I'm hoping the m3's is the same. I do know e36 m3 disks are 240mm.

I was hoping to use the s62 flywheel and clutch pressure plate, However i think the bulkiness of the dual mass flywheel could be an issue. The outer edge of flywheel seems to catch on the bell housing.
Being an auto housing Im not quite sure of the differences in sizes of the internals. This should stop me though as I can use a lightweight flywheel, 540i flywheel and any 240mm clutch pressure plate.

Almost "all" BMW clutch discs are 240mm, there are of course couple of exceptions but the main difference is in the pressure plate as that is the one that defines the torque capacity.

Typical upgrade with 5-speed boxes is E34 M5 3.6 Sachs Racing pressure plate (part nro -765) that can withstand 700Nm with normal organic clutch disc. It is also "bolt-on" to all M30 / S38 applications, so if you get a FW done I'de recommend using that combination.

[Turk]

Jonsku I am using the Getrag 265, Its the E30 m3 US spec, Non dogleg, overdrive box. A quick google will tell u how strong they are.

Overdrive is 0.81, better than s62 6 speed box at 0.83

I don't think ill be using those mounting points as they are 8mm. They may be used as extra support and keeping things in place while measuring.

I think I will be using the main 10mm bolts holing the rear casing. I will probably use them as anchor points to as many points as possible. The more the merrier.

Do you know of any flywheels which are non s62 which have the same pcd and might save me some space?

The 240mm is ideal, Do u have part numbers for the e34 m5 clutch?

Cheers

[The Dark Side of Will]

That gearbox came from an E30 M3 using the S14 engine, which has the same backend as the M10, M30 and S38. Jonsku's E34 M5 clutch suggestion should work just fine, as long as you make your flywheel to put the friction surface the same distance from the crank flange as the S38 flywheel.

If there is a difference in the distances from the bellhousing flange to crank flange on the S62 and S38, you'll have to decide if you want to make that difference up in the bellhousing or flywheel.

I'd start with an auto trans flex plate and essentially *make* a flywheel out of steel plates which will bolt onto it... but I don't know right off how thin it has to be.

You will need to use an alignment dowel between whatever you make and the transmission to ensure that the T-case is located correctly and its input is concentric on the output of the transmission within 0.005 inches or less.

The rear cover for the 265 is shallow enough that it might be practical to have an entirely new rear cover with added T-case mounts cut from an aluminum billet.

[Jonsku]

Jonsku I am using the Getrag 265, Its the E30 m3 US spec, Non dogleg, overdrive box. A quick google will tell u how strong they are.

Ok, thought it looked a bit weird for V8 'box. :)

Do you know of any flywheels which are non s62 which have the same pcd and might save me some space?

The 240mm is ideal, Do u have part numbers for the e34 m5 clutch?

All V8 flywheels share the same PCD, but unfortunately all of them are twin-mass so not much use as such.

I'd definitely go for custom flywheel, I think there's one company in UK making them for pretty good price (there is quite much talk of that @ e30zone).

The clutch I'm talking of is this. You can buy the pressure plate separately (~250-300€) and use normal M30 clutch disc as you've the 5-speed box.
That combination will hold all the power you can throw at it, though of course the FW needs to be made for those dimensions.

Here's my FW for cabrio (Sachs -765 pressure plate, old S62 clutch disc for measurement). It's been the best mod I've made to the engine, makes it rev so, so much better. :)

[Turk]

The rear cover for the 265 is shallow enough that it might be practical to have an entirely new rear cover with added T-case mounts cut from an aluminum billet.

Thats definitely an option. I have a friend with cnc shop so might pop by and see what he can do.

Flywheel wise, could i not just go and buy a lightweight v8 one and use the e34 clutch? Will the e34 friction plate plane pattern match the gearbox?

In essence as long as the fw w/clutch spins freely in the bell housing and the starter motor works, its just a case of measuring the gap to the pressure plate fins in order to fit the concentric slave at the correct position?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Did anyone else receive this topic replay notification?

I doubt this is really going to be helpful...

You may be able to use a combination of the top section of the BMW Z8's oilpan/pump merged to the bottom of the X5 pan.

The Z8 had a centrally mounted sump area, and may lend itself to converting to what you want with some cool surgery.

Or not.

But last I checked there were several pans in the inventory.

Alex.

I'm guessing he deleted the post.
The Z8 sump obviously won't work in the AWD application, and the RWD sump works just fine in a RWD E30.

However, the Z8 sump looks like it would be useful for an E36 S62 swap.

Threads with pics:

http://bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=2558

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/199685-oilpan-problem-m3-e30-s62-2.html

http://bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=2558

Real OEM:



It *DOES* appear to retain the active sump...

Food for thought.

Edit: The list price is only $1200...

[Turk]

I didn't get that update /\



Just going back to the subframe for a sec, you mentioned earlier that is bolts up to later cars as they have an extra hole for the ix subframe.

Neither of my cars have the extra hole for the subframe so I'm going to have to make a mounting point. Is it a case of literally bolting the rear subframe hole to the front chassis rail hole? and then making up the other?

Do you have any pictures of the positioning of the subframe? or any links to any build threads of ix conversions to standard cars?

[M3 euro ltw]

Yep

I deleted it after looking more closely at where the pump is actually located, and realizing that my memory was fallible.

I thought that the pump location lended itself more to the AWD platform, but looking more closely, realize its going to interfere with the same space the axle has to pass through, so you really need a front sump, BLOCK mounted oil pump to pull off the AWD aspect.....

Hence, I just deleted the post.

Also, a reasonable inference, I was looking at the Z8 architecture to see if it might lend itself to E36 use, but its far from optimal for that, even disregarding the price it, it still doesn't add up to a plug and play rear sump situation for the E36 crowd. To preserve the original placement of gearbox to chassis, the space alotted to the sump is actually quite small for these V8 engines.

This all reminds me much of a 2002 Turbo build I recall reading about in the magazines a few years ago where they took a modern FI M5X of some sort, and actually built up a system to run the transmission at the back of the car for weight distribution if I recall correctly....and built (I think) a torque tube between the two, with a custom DS between them, and short DS to the diff.

This is quite a challenge, fun to watch, WAY more than I would ever tackle.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I thought that the pump location lended itself more to the AWD platform, but looking more closely, realize its going to interfere with the same space the axle has to pass through, so you really need a front sump, BLOCK mounted oil pump to pull off the AWD aspect.....

Also, a reasonable inference, I was looking at the Z8 architecture to see if it might lend itself to E36 use, but its far from optimal for that, even disregarding the price it, it still doesn't add up to a plug and play rear sump situation for the E36 crowd. To preserve the original placement of gearbox to chassis, the space alotted to the sump is actually quite small for these V8 engines.

For AWD, the only pan that's a serious contender is the X5 pan... nothing else will mount a differential.

There is a post on Bimmerforums with pictures of an E36 V8 (actually an S62) built using the X5 pan without the diff. It actually looks like a really good fit.

I'm working on mating the BMW engine to Chevrolet transmission right now for my project, but my next step will be either to fit the E53 pan to the E30 AWD rack or the E53 pan to the S62.