HELP! Socal for m60/m62 hybrid engine runs like ****

[bemmerguy714]

So got my self in a bit of a freak engine setup situation.

Basically the e30 has a m62 engine (nonvanos) with an m60 intake manifold (higher flowing) running on the m60 404 dme. I did the conversion to the right side trigger off the cam, and welded the m60 cranksensor off the front crankcase of the m60 onto the m62.

The good news is the car starts and runs. I know the car needs a tune bad now. It takes a while to start (and usually i need to push the gas for it to start). It misfires alot, sputters etc. ( not entirely sure that the dme is the ONLY thing causing this but figured its where I should start). I didnt think the 4.0 to 4.4 would make it run that bad.

My question is this though. Is there a shop that I can take the car to in so cal that will basically burn the m62 maps onto the m60 dme?

I know people are not getting tunes for e34 dmes all the time so I guess my second resort would be to send the ecu to someone who could burn the m62 data on there to at least make the car drivable.

Suggestions are welcome.

[senorcarey]

Considering that many of us have, or are considering running an M60/62 hybrid, I am thinking that Megasquirt may be the way to go as opposed to trying to find a tune. I don't know how much a tune is, but I am guessing in the region of $400-600. At that level, one would be real close to a new MS3.

I believe that there are at least two V8s running it, if not at least a few more. There's also a Volvo 240(?) running a turbo M62 w/MS somewhere on Youtube. They balance a USB fob on the valve cover to show how smooth it is.

Are there any particular problems with running this combo on MS?

Scott C.

[Wanganstyle]

sounds like you have a vacuum leak / something not connected- the M62 non vanos engine will fire up directly and run with a M60b30 or m60b40 ecu. fires up first try and drives around also; does not need ANY remapping to fire and idle like stock.

Mapping also needs to be done to make up for the lower rpm peak cams and 400cc displacement increase.

you ever come up north?

[bemmerguy714]

Considering that many of us have, or are considering running an M60/62 hybrid, I am thinking that Megasquirt may be the way to go as opposed to trying to find a tune. I don't know how much a tune is, but I am guessing in the region of $400-600. At that level, one would be real close to a new MS3.

I believe that there are at least two V8s running it, if not at least a few more. There's also a Volvo 240(?) running a turbo M62 w/MS somewhere on Youtube. They balance a USB fob on the valve cover to show how smooth it is.

Are there any particular problems with running this combo on MS?

Scott C.

I think i have decided to run with the miller war chip. It already comes with a tune for the m62 conversion.

sounds like you have a vacuum leak / something not connected- the M62 non vanos engine will fire up directly and run with a M60b30 or m60b40 ecu. fires up first try and drives around also; does not need ANY remapping to fire and idle like stock.

Mapping also needs to be done to make up for the lower rpm peak cams and 400cc displacement increase.

you ever come up north?

Right??? Thats what im looking for by I cant seem to find the problem. I sprayed carb cleaner to look for a leak. Nothing! Tested cam sensor and crank sensor. Both check out.

Part of me things that it has something to do with the timing. Maybe when I put it back toghter it wasnt perfect? I dont really know. I mean, it has the symptoms of too much advance. It takes alot of time to start, Sputters alot under load, but then theres this area in the rpm range (middle) where it pulls strong and then again in the higher range sputter and falls on its face.

If it is the timing, i really dont want to take it all a part and im wondering if I can compensate for that using the miller software.

Think that will work? Im lost!

[Jonsku]

If the timing is wrong, there's absolutely no way around it other than opening it up and timing it correctly.


One tooth difference in timing can easily make ten hp difference in power..

[Wanganstyle]

I think i have decided to run with the miller war chip. It already comes with a tune for the m62 conversion.



Right??? Thats what im looking for by I cant seem to find the problem. I sprayed carb cleaner to look for a leak. Nothing! Tested cam sensor and crank sensor. Both check out.

Part of me things that it has something to do with the timing. Maybe when I put it back toghter it wasnt perfect? I dont really know. I mean, it has the symptoms of too much advance. It takes alot of time to start, Sputters alot under load, but then theres this area in the rpm range (middle) where it pulls strong and then again in the higher range sputter and falls on its face.

If it is the timing, i really dont want to take it all a part and im wondering if I can compensate for that using the miller software.

Think that will work? Im lost!

NON-VANOS M62 ENGINE. There is no timing mechanically adjusted besides for getting the cams perfect.

VANOS engines have a VANOS unit that adjusts the mechanical timing- BUT you need to have it set up perfectly also otherwise it will run wack.


why would you try to fix a mechanical problem with software? if no cam blocks were used due to cheapness; you have a serious bundle of puzzles to chase down.

did you replace the intake manifold gaskets with NEW? the M62 non-vanos intake manifold is the identical size intake runner pipes to the M60 unit, why did you change this item? the M62 item matches the head better.

did you use a brand new CCV or some mystery part?



did you use the proper cam alignment tool to set the cams? if answer is NO, then you have them wrong.

if you did not use the proper tools, now is the time to buy them/borrow them.

if you did not change the CCV to a brand new unit; now is the time to buy one and install it.

You may also have issues with location of the crank position sensor; the gap may also be off.

[dirty30]

Truth. Gotta have the cam blocks, crank pin and the dummy screw in tensioner to get it perfect.

[bemmerguy714]

Thank you for your response

NON-VANOS M62 ENGINE. There is no timing mechanically adjusted besides for getting the cams perfect.

VANOS engines have a VANOS unit that adjusts the mechanical timing- BUT you need to have it set up perfectly also otherwise it will run wack.


why would you try to fix a mechanical problem with software? if no cam blocks were used due to cheapness; you have a serious bundle of puzzles to chase down.

did you replace the intake manifold gaskets with NEW? the M62 non-vanos intake manifold is the identical size intake runner pipes to the M60 unit, why did you change this item? the M62 item matches the head better.

did you use a brand new CCV or some mystery part?



did you use the proper cam alignment tool to set the cams? if answer is NO, then you have them wrong.

if you did not use the proper tools, now is the time to buy them/borrow them.

if you did not change the CCV to a brand new unit; now is the time to buy one and install it.

You may also have issues with location of the crank position sensor; the gap may also be off.

The blocks were used (I own the tools). So mechanical timing should be perfect.

Im only thinking software at this point because I am getting desperate. Ive been chasing this problem for a month! I have checked for a vacum leak, nothing. Tested the Cam position sensor, the crank position sensor (its with spec as to how far it can be). Changed knock sensors to new. The car doesnt have the correct tune (4.0) at the moment but people who have done the swap say it should still be drivable. Because of the misfires, its clearly not.

Intake manifold gaskets are new.I was under the impresion M62 non-vanos intake manifold flows better M60 unit. I will switch back to the M62 item just to make sure this isnt the issue.

CCV has not been touched.

I am thinking the location of the crank position sensor as well. But I have checked it with people who have done the conversion. The trigger is "before" the sensor at tdc. I do not know how far the cap should be. Could this be an issue?

Truth. Gotta have the cam blocks, crank pin and the dummy screw in tensioner to get it perfect.

Wish I could. I had to rely on cam blocks and dummy screw only. I cannot use the crank pin because the jb racing flywheel on the car does not have the tdc hole.

[Wanganstyle]

the CCV could be your culprit; they have the ability to leak vacuum.

needing to push the gas down for a hard starting sounds like a vacuum leak. if it starts every time the cps and cam sensors are most likely a-ok.

Does it throw any codes? do you have the CEL light functioning? you can wire in a mil light pretty easily if you dont have one setup to work.

[bmwmech1]

...Wish I could. I had to rely on cam blocks and dummy screw only. I cannot use the crank pin because the jb racing flywheel on the car does not have the tdc hole.

This made me angry about the JB and UUC flywheels, so I kept a flex plate for future use. I understand why they don't machine a hole for the pin, but it's a major inconvenience. I guess its the price of the LTW flywheel, but I'm still pissed about it.
OP, I think you're too hung up on the 404DME thing being part of your issue. You have an M62 that you converted to OBDI. It should have no issue running on that DME. I have a full blown Frankenstein motor, running just fine on a 404 DME. M62B44TU block and rotating assembly, M60B40 heads, cams, intake, front covers and double-row timing assembly. Fired up first time and runs okay on the 404. Needs tuned for the larger displacement/hotter cams situation, but it runs okay and idles perfectly. Check the CCV, I've had issues on customer cars in the past, from the CCV/PCV on these motors. G/L, you'll find it, just keep being persistent...

Garey

[bemmerguy714]

the CCV could be your culprit; they have the ability to leak vacuum.

needing to push the gas down for a hard starting sounds like a vacuum leak. if it starts every time the cps and cam sensors are most likely a-ok.

Does it throw any codes? do you have the CEL light functioning? you can wire in a mil light pretty easily if you dont have one setup to work.

Thank you.

I will look into the ccv. I sprayed carb cleaner to get the engine to find a leak in that area but nothing. I will still work on that and see if it gets anything going while im replacing the intake back to the m62 intake. theres something going on under and the carb cleaner isnt getting to it.

The car doesnt need gas to start I found out. Makes no diffrence apparently with or without it. Still takes about 15-20 secs of turning over to start but it does it with no gas.

CEL is on. Im trying to find a way to read the codes. Anyone local have one I can rent maybe?

This made me angry about the JB and UUC flywheels, so I kept a flex plate for future use. I understand why they don't machine a hole for the pin, but it's a major inconvenience. I guess its the price of the LTW flywheel, but I'm still pissed about it.
OP, I think you're too hung up on the 404DME thing being part of your issue. You have an M62 that you converted to OBDI. It should have no issue running on that DME. I have a full blown Frankenstein motor, running just fine on a 404 DME. M62B44TU block and rotating assembly, M60B40 heads, cams, intake, front covers and double-row timing assembly. Fired up first time and runs okay on the 404. Needs tuned for the larger displacement/hotter cams situation, but it runs okay and idles perfectly. Check the CCV, I've had issues on customer cars in the past, from the CCV/PCV on these motors. G/L, you'll find it, just keep being persistent...

Garey

Thanks Garey

Your car is an inspiration. Yea that flywheel deal is pretty inconvenient. By the time i figured it out it was too late.

Your probobly right. I dont see any reason the 404 would have trouble. I think at this point its something else going on causing the car to lean out more then the original tune already does that. (War chip on its way). But I would like to solve this before installing the chip for piece of mind.

If the timing is wrong, there's absolutely no way around it other than opening it up and timing it correctly.


One tooth difference in timing can easily make ten hp difference in power..

This is def more then 10hp missing. I used the blocks so i dont think there should be any issue with timing. If the CCV and intake dont solve this problem I will once again reopen and check timing again.

Only thing I question on the swap is the placment of the trigger at TDC near the cam sensor. Does anyone have a picture of its placement? I compared it to a member at bimmerforums but every one is MIA?

Thank you for your help guys.

[iamsam]

That's it, I must do this frankenstein M60B44.

This is your fault, Garey.

[Jonsku]

Wish I could. I had to rely on cam blocks and dummy screw only. I cannot use the crank pin because the jb racing flywheel on the car does not have the tdc hole.

How can you then be sure that the timing is right .. ?

[bemmerguy714]

How can you then be sure that the timing is right .. ?

The crank is lined up to the OT mark (tdc). And the cams both sides were aligned used the blocks. Is there something Im missing besides that? Only thing that leaves to be off is misplacment of the modified m62 camshaft trigger. I hope someone can verify tdc placment for me. Im compared it to members of bimmerforums.

[Wanganstyle]

The crank is lined up to the OT mark (tdc). And the cams both sides were aligned used the blocks. Is there something Im missing besides that? Only thing that leaves to be off is misplacment of the modified m62 camshaft trigger. I hope someone can verify tdc placment for me. Im compared it to members of bimmerforums.

this is quite a serious issue:

most engines can run on crank position sensor alone; the M20's pretty much do. (distributor for spark that is mechanically fixed and perfect when timed perfect.).
can you post some photos of your crank and cam position sensor setup? Have you tried reading the wave created with an osciloscope from cam/crank sensor?? Perhaps the signal is not strong enough do to gapping, or is off a bit, or they are not in sync.

I have driven a local car (e34) fitted with M62b44 complete untouched longmotor and full M60b30 (3.0Liter V8) electronics, it fired up perfect, had enough torque with 6mt+3.15 LSD to do choku dori's down the road in gear 1/2. obviously was not