Custom Headers

[M3 euro ltw]

I'm about to embark on a project for M60/M62/S62 headers that will fit an E36 transplant.

I'm fairly sure that they will be useful for E30 transplant as well, but I'm not positive that all the geometry regarding frame rail and steering shaft correspond between the two.

The goal will be a very carefully prepared stepped header with equal length primaries. It is not clear yet whether Tri-Y like Dinan's S62 header or 4:1 like SS header will be the final design.

I've spent a small fortune on the prototyping Icengine block system so I can really plan in advance and make it the best possible with the least number of cuts and waste. (If you've not seen their website, check it out, Victor is great to work with too)

I'm sort of wondering if anyone in Chicago area is planning an E30V8 swap in the next couple of months, moving slowly too, and perhaps I can develop a header that we know in advance will serve both communities?

Let me know if you're local, and might offer an opportunity to test fit at some time.....

Kit is on the way, so its not a project that is close to completion yet, but it would be slick to have this for E30 at the same time...even if only one side has to be different, I can build two versions of the driver side header.

Alex.

[fanboi]

I'd love to be in Chicago right about now lol. Good luck and keep us updated!

[Jonsku]

E30 and E36 are completely different, e.g. the frame rails in E36 are much, much narrower than in E30 etc..

I propose not to try to go for one set of "universal headers", but for two different sets.

[M3 euro ltw]

Thanks!

E30 and E36 are completely different, e.g. the frame rails in E36 are much, much narrower than in E30 etc..

I propose not to try to go for one set of "universal headers", but for two different sets.

Thank you!

(And bummer)

If this is the case, with respect to the frame rails, then certainly anything I create for the E36 is likely to clear the frame rails on the E30, but it could be unnecessarily restrictive....

Any idea on the relative location of the steering shaft? The basic geometry of the steering rack, control arms and sub-frame appear to be very, very similar....

Offer is still open, would love to trial fit what I come up with on an E30 if anyone has one brewing in the nearby area.....(I'm west of Chicago in burbs)

[pantelones]

Please tell me you are using the PVC mock up method.... Watch the whole series if you haven't already.



And making a header for a v8 swap is just not that simple. In order to make sure that your headers are going to fit, you would need to make the motor mounts (arms), supply specific mounts, trans brace (and mounts), steering linkage (flaming river works well), and possibly even down to the brake booster, or booster less set up. A lot of e30 owners are cheap, and are not going to spend the kind of money you guys put into your products.

Also I will note that I am a TIG welder and fabricator. I currently was going to Ferris State taking there welding technology program, but unfortunately had to drop due to a health issue. If you would like I can stop by the shop in a couple weeks when I get home. I also have an e30 with a removable core support if you are interested :)

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=250847

Edit: Not going to lie, I came across the Ice engine works stuff you spent a small fortune on and it really is unnecessary... The PVC method is just fine and will do exactly the same thing at a fraction of the cost. The IEW would be nice, and I guess since you already have it go ahead and use it...

[M3 euro ltw]

Please tell me you are using the PVC mock up method.... Watch the whole series if you haven't already.

Edit: Not going to lie, I came across the Ice engine works stuff you spent a small fortune on and it really is unnecessary... The PVC method is just fine and will do exactly the same thing at a fraction of the cost. The IEW would be nice, and I guess since you already have it go ahead and use it...

Excellent work on your car, you've got and are developing great skills.

I'm sure PVC might work well for this, but the diameters of the tubing I'm using for the primaries will be 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 until the first merge if I go Tri-Y, or until the third step if I go 4:1.

Considering the very tight space involved, I really want to nail the pipe sizes and mock it up with the actual diameter of what the pipes will be. The system has mock up parts in 1 5/8 of 2, 3, and 4 inch radius, and in the 1.75, adds in 6 inch. These are common in mandrel pre-bent shapes, so there is incredible flexibility. Victor at Icengineworks was also willing to sell me a hybrid large kit with roughly half the bits in 1.625 and the rest in 1.75, so I'm pretty pleased I can mock up the primaries exactly as they will turn out.

I also searched for a while for "used" kits from Icengineworks, and came up dry. This tells me two things.
First off, people who've bought them seem to hold on to them, and find value there.
Second, whether I complete or don't complete the project using the kit, I can probably resell it at a relatively small loss since there is no glut of used kits on the market, even if I lose a bit on the deal, it will not break the bank.

I also suspect that if this turns out as well as I hope, I will have a couple sets of these made for others, and that will defray the cost to some extent.

[pantelones]

Excellent work on your car, you've got and are developing great skills.

I'm sure PVC might work well for this, but the diameters of the tubing I'm using for the primaries will be 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 until the first merge if I go Tri-Y, or until the third step if I go 4:1.

Considering the very tight space involved, I really want to nail the pipe sizes and mock it up with the actual diameter of what the pipes will be. The system has mock up parts in 1 5/8 of 2, 3, and 4 inch radius, and in the 1.75, adds in 6 inch. These are common in mandrel pre-bent shapes, so there is incredible flexibility. Victor at Icengineworks was also willing to sell me a hybrid large kit with roughly half the bits in 1.625 and the rest in 1.75, so I'm pretty pleased I can mock up the primaries exactly as they will turn out.

I also searched for a while for "used" kits from Icengineworks, and came up dry. This tells me two things.
First off, people who've bought them seem to hold on to them, and find value there.
Second, whether I complete or don't complete the project using the kit, I can probably resell it at a relatively small loss since there is no glut of used kits on the market, even if I lose a bit on the deal, it will not break the bank.

I also suspect that if this turns out as well as I hope, I will have a couple sets of these made for others, and that will defray the cost to some extent.

First off, thank you! :D


Is that all the pieces to the kit in the photo? If so, you must be routing one tube at a time correct? I definitely like the idea of the kit, but personally I have enough skills to either visually see interference, or would be able to mock up tubing in the tight spots. Yet again, it would be an easier route to already have that done! And it's going to be very convenient to have all of the bends the same as the actual mandrel bends that you are getting. Again, you guys have the money to play with this type of stuff to make things less of a headache, so by all means take the stress out of it!

Also, the resale side of it I didn't really thing about... That is also a plus for using something like this. Until you posted this I had not seen IEW products before, and may consider looking into some used pieces for myself. I don't really have any plans for making headers in the intermediate future, but I definitely will at some point and I doubt I will have access to a mandrel bender.

As far as your design goes, I am not sure what the s/m6X's are producing since I really haven't looked into them too much. I will say though that your primaries may or may not be too big; I say that because just about EVERYONE that makes headers for the m20 makes them gigantic! A proper sized primary for the m20 is 1 3/8", and will support up to, and past 200hp.

You can never do enough homework, and you seem like the type of guy that likes to read and learn more about what it is that you are doing. Here is some good reading material if you have the time. Good luck with your headers! :up:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/exhaust/0505phr_exh/viewall.html

[M3 euro ltw]

Design and kit

Victor put together a hybrid kit for me.

30 each of the straight, 2, 3, 4 inch radius and 8 starter blocks for 1.625
And 25 each of straight, 2,3,4,6 of the 1.75 sized pipe. Total part count 253.

This was not on his website, it was something I requested.

The kits value is best realized when you have space to get the lengths equal distant. You can swap parts in and out in new radius until the segment count is equal for each primary....since each block is one inch travel on the centerline.

Almost all the resources on header design warn against a common fault of assuming that larger is better. FI design is different, and I'm not building a header meant for that. The ports on the head have less cross sectional area than even the 1.625 pipe I'll start with.

I have to quickly decide if I'm going to to ordering 4 collectors from someone (2:1) and then another pair of larger 2:1 (Tri-y) or, a pair of 4:1 collectors

The shear size of the 4:1 and buik may make it hard to arrange all 4 pipes cooking out around the large V8 bell housing. It might be easier the other way.

[pantelones]

Ah I see so you you do have a full kit, nice! Funny that those are bears colors too haha A buddy of mine had a bears colored BMX bike that we would always give him shit for...

Anyways, can't really help you with the collectors other than recommending a place to get them from... It's one of those things that even with pictures it's hard to get a feel for the space constraints, and ultimately they are your design. 4-1 would make for easier routing since you don't have to worry about matching cylinders, but yet again you may not have the space for the big collector. 2-1 I have heard sounds a bit better and may help scavenging, but that is really beyond my understanding at this point (No physical experience...). If you have the time and money, make both! :) You could dyno them (AND take them to a track!) and see which ones produce a better sound and overall performance. That would take any subjectivity out of the equation and give you, and your market a better product.

http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/merge-collectors-100/?osCsid=97df64d7bd31bae1fb0777cfb69ecdf6

^^^ really good quality stuff, but you pay for it!

[The Dark Side of Will]

Columbia river is actually one of the cheapest sources I've found for single bends.

I've spent a small fortune on the prototyping Icengine block system so I can really plan in advance and make it the best possible with the least number of cuts and waste. (If you've not seen their website, check it out, Victor is great to work with too)

Those look like fantastic tools. I want a set for when I build headers for my Northstar Fiero.

I'm sort of wondering if anyone in Chicago area is planning an E30V8 swap in the next couple of months, moving slowly too, and perhaps I can develop a header that we know in advance will serve both communities?

That would be ideal. If the E36 is narrower between the frame rails and it fits the E36, it *sounds like* it *should* fit the E30. Since your particular swap is an E36, that works out well. As least fit-check an E30, though. Use a "standard" set of mount arms like the 300mm.de ones for a point of reference.

The crossmember and suspension is further forward relative to the engine in an E36, so the areas in which the steering shaft may interfere with the header will be different.

This is evident when considering LS engine swaps into E36's and E46's, as there is no production GM manifold which will clear the steering shaft in those bodies.

OTOH, if headers turn out to be very difficult to make, a steering shaft relocation via Flaming River parts may be the best way to get the job done.

Have you considered building them with 180 degree collectors by passing the cross-over tubes under the oil pan? ;D ;)

[M3 euro ltw]

e30 vs E36

The common engine mount brackets available off the shelf from any number of vendors are sold as being useful for E30 OR E 36.

Now.... As is easily seen, the crossmember for an E 30 has the engine mount forwards, alongside the steering rack.

And, the In the E36 the crossmember is set up so that the engine mount is behind the crossmember.

I'm assuming from this that the average V8 is intended to sit further back relative to the E 30 when in the E36.

Given a transitive approach to logic, and my understanding that people reuse their E36 engine brackets for E30 transplant, that means the engines sit at least 4 inches forward relative to e30 placement and front axle...so, the fire wall is likely closer too, as there is not a huge gap on E30s, where you see the gearbox under the hood....

[dirtysix]

How are you planning on clearing the E36 cross-member and steering rack with the M60/2 sump? Am keen as to know.

[Jonsku]

The common engine mount brackets available off the shelf from any number of vendors are sold as being useful for E30 OR E 36.

Yes they are being sold, but in real life the fitment in E36 is more or less impossible / challenging.

Did test-fit one engine in E36 with these mounts something like 5 years ago so don't remember exactly how it was but in the end the engine didn't fit in there with the mounts..

As such there is more space in front of the engine in E30 than in E36. Also hood clearance in E36 is quite tight / zero..

[M3 euro ltw]

Engine mounts

Had a US shop build a set of E30/E36 brackets for me in alum, but not pre-drilled for actual rubber mount stud.

This will leave some flexibility for me, and maybe it's close, maybe not.

Ultimately, it is very, very tight in there, and I'm not claiming I can reach all my goals with the headers either.

These projects are labors of love, heavily influenced by personal bias.
My priorities:

1) Set back as close to firewall as practical
2) If possible preserve ability to use Euro E36 6 sp trans mounting, shifting and driveshaft parts. Save time, as well as allow for E34 5 speed parts to work with their corresponding parts.
3) Wet sump with internal chain driven pump
4) standard oil cooler vs heat exchanger or none.
5) significant improvement over factory headers.
6) preservation of space for factory and standard aftermarket sway bar options.
7) preservation of AC real estate so people could have it.
8) preservation of E36 steering rack and stock 'path' of shaft

[M3 euro ltw]

Baby steps

These came in today, courtesy of a connection through the M5 forum.

Nicely made, and will serve as place to anchor the starter blocks in the Icengineworks kit.