Is the effort worth the reward?

[P Arkus]

So after months upon months of researching what engine swap I want for my E30, I went down a few different routes. At first I wanted an S50/S52 engine, not a bad choice. Then looked into an S54, great choice but much more costly. Always turned away from V8's as I was grossly mislead to think that a V8 would be a nose heavy pig (already had a VW R32. Great car but doesnt turn quite like an E30 ;D). Well I did some more research and realized quite the opposite (aluminum block, sits further back in engine bay, wider but shorter, yada yada).

So pairing that up with the fact that an S5x engine still costs about 3G with transmission, and S54 engine & transmission costs closer to 6G, and an E34 540i donor car can be purchased for under 2G (I can recover part of the cost by parting the rest of the car), it made my choice a bit simpler. Always loved V8's, the torque they produce, and after hearing what they sound like swapped into an E30, I was convinced. I only have one thing i'm still unsure about......

Should I go M60B40, or M60B44 Hybrid? If I go M60B44, is the effort worth the reward? Either way, I will be going 6spd transmission, and either way this will not be a quick build. I will be taking my time, doing things right, and if it takes me 18 months to do it, so be it.

Only reason I ask this is that i've read quite a few build threads for M6x swaps, but none of them really mention what the end result is for those who went M60B44. The 2 builds that come to mind are:

BMWMech1: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96824
Driftingminor913: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=282219

I know both cars are now running, but I havent seen any dyno numbers or feedback from the gentlemen to hear if their efforts were worth it or if they should have just stuck to the M60B40 engine. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Please keep all LSx talk out of this as I am keeping this strictly BMW. Already purchased one of Frank M's E30M60 swap guides and will start collecting parts shortly. Just need to figure out exactly what direction I want to go with it.

Here is the car that will be getting the heart transplant ;)

[stoja e30]

you mean something like this

cause this is whats going in my other e30:up:

[MonkeyMadness]

look for a 98 m62b44, it's 4.4, non-vanos, easily converted to obd1, and if everything goes right, after my build is finished there will be an Ms3 option as well as a bolt on Eaton bolt on manifold... :nice:

I also see more people playing with the v8 swaps that it's only a matter of time before the hp add-ons are every where.. and the v8 swap becomes the desired e30 swap

[Vtec?lol]

I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an ms3x setup.
The extra half liter does make a difference however I'm not sure how much you can feel it in an e30.

[driftingminor913]

Yeah, I apologize for not getting feedback to you guys on my build. But as soon as I get some kinks ironed out you will have a dyno sheet of before tune and after tune.

[P Arkus]

So for those who don't know, the M60B44 is the unofficial term for putting together a hybrid motor by using the 4.4L block from an M62B44 and using the heads off an M60B40 (along with all the other parts off an M60). The M60 heads "apparently" flow similar but slightly worse than the M62, but have more aggressive camshafts.

MonkeyMadness, are the NV M62 motors hard to convert to OBD1? From what I've read, all that it takes to build the M60B44 Hybrid is to replace the single row timing chain on the M62 with the double row timing chain, and create some custom timing covers. Everything else is pretty much bolt on without much modification/fabrication needed.

Driftingminor, can you confirm this? Is there anything else that is needed to build the hybrid?

[MonkeyMadness]

Its much easier than i was thinking when i started. Check my build, if you have any questions feel free to ask.
No you don't need to change the chain.
Just need to mod the cam timing tooth. Super easy to do...

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk

[jalopi]

S62 like a boss

But seriously, 302/LSX/M(S)6X are all worth it. v8 burble and torque, fuck yes.

Brakes are by and far the most annoying part of this swap, but if you're planning on buying a 540 to get your drivetrain that problem is solved.

[P Arkus]

So what was the reason you chose to go M62 OBD1 over M60B44? Was it just that the engine were available to you? Would the power be very similar between the 2? I assume putting the M62 back to OBD1 would up the ponies a bit?

[garretvs]

Its worth the effort if you think that spinning the tires at 60mph is fun ... ;)

[The Dark Side of Will]

The M60B40 and M62B44 were both rated at 280 HP by BMW. I have no idea what chassis numbers each puts down stock (ie, I have no idea if BMW significantly under-rated the M62, or if it's actually in a lower state of tune than the M60).

The M60 heads supposedly flow equal or better than M62 heads, and the right M60 intake (there are a couple different variations) is better than the M62 intake. The M60 cams are more aggressive (don't know numbers) and the M60 has dual valvesprings while the M62 has singles.

The M60 also has the dual row timing chains and an idler sprocket in the V, while the M62 has single row chains and the dreaded U-guide in the V. The U-guide is a guaranteed maintenance item in any high mileage M62.

Supposedly the M60B44 ends up with 11:1 compression, and if you @$$ume it has the same specific output as the M60 + a little extra from the increased compression, *I* think it should make about 320 HP.
I'd love to build one to verify at some point.

Is the [engine build] effort worth the reward?
The engines are not that expensive... check out www.car-parts.com
If you do the hybrid, then you KNOW what the inside of your engine looks like. Having done the assembly yourself, you know what's inside your engine. You also end up with the best components from each generation, which appeals to me. BMW appears to have over-designed the M60 engine and then took money out in a few select places in the M62 engine.

Is the [swap] effort worth the reward? Sounds like you've already figured that one out ;)

If you have a few $$ to spend, get the M62B46 block from an E53 X5 4.6is... However, those are rarer than E39 M5's and yards seem to want more for those blocks than they do for S62's, so it may not be cost effective.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Style 5's, right? 17's? Originally from E39?

What tires? I like the height, but tires look pretty narrow on the wheels for me... just not as bad as some I've seen.

[P Arkus]

Its worth the effort if you think that spinning the tires at 60mph is fun ... ;)

Haha i'm sure thats well worth the effort, but i'm sure I can achieve close to that with either an M60B40 or and M60B44 Hybrid ;D

The M60B40 and M62B44 were both rated at 280 HP by BMW. I have no idea what chassis numbers each puts down stock (ie, I have no idea if BMW significantly under-rated the M62, or if it's actually in a lower state of tune than the M60).

The M60 heads supposedly flow equal or better than M62 heads, and the right M60 intake (there are a couple different variations) is better than the M62 intake. The M60 cams are more aggressive (don't know numbers) and the M60 has dual valvesprings while the M62 has singles.

The M60 also has the dual row timing chains and an idler sprocket in the V, while the M62 has single row chains and the dreaded U-guide in the V. The U-guide is a guaranteed maintenance item in any high mileage M62.

Supposedly the M60B44 ends up with 11:1 compression, and if you @$$ume it has the same specific output as the M60 + a little extra from the increased compression, *I* think it should make about 320 HP.
I'd love to build one to verify at some point.

Is the [engine build] effort worth the reward?
The engines are not that expensive... check out www.car-parts.com
If you do the hybrid, then you KNOW what the inside of your engine looks like. Having done the assembly yourself, you know what's inside your engine. You also end up with the best components from each generation, which appeals to me. BMW appears to have over-designed the M60 engine and then took money out in a few select places in the M62 engine.

Is the [swap] effort worth the reward? Sounds like you've already figured that one out ;)

If you have a few $$ to spend, get the M62B46 block from an E53 X5 4.6is... However, those are rarer than E39 M5's and yards seem to want more for those blocks than they do for S62's, so it may not be cost effective.

Thats a terrific explanation. I knew about the heads, the cams and about the intake manifold (hopefully with stumble upon one of the early ones with velocity stacks), but I forgot about the dual valve springs. Sounds like most of the hybrid combining of engines is plug n play and that it will definitely be worth the effort to build a strong healthy motor with the best parts of both!

As for the wheels, they are 16x8/16x9 ESM 002's (BBS RS Reps) on 185/55 in the front and 205/50 in the back. Its a bit of a meaty stretch, but since its a japanese car (euro spec model), its automatic. Didnt really feel like pulling my fenders too aggressively and also didnt feel I needed alot of tire to put that mad M20 4sp automatic power down to the ground when I step on the gas lol. When I do the swap, i'll be doing a bit more of an aggressive fender pull and getting some real tires put on it

I definitely want to keep this thread going, just to hear the opinions of those who have completed the swap and what their initial thoughts are about the feel of power, torque, convenience, and any other input they may have!

[driftingminor913]

If you don't know anything going into a m60b44 hybrid swap then I suggest you read up
Quickly cause I found out some hidden things that weren't spoke of ( chain, idler, timing cover(s) also making your own gaskets for them etc) also found out some nifty things also that I incorporated into the swap along with getting more work done to the heads n what not. If you have a engine available to you for cheap then jump on it cause....I stopped counting after 4k into my swap n I'm still not done :-/ but if your up for the challenge the go for it

[P Arkus]

If you don't know anything going into a m60b44 hybrid swap then I suggest you read up
Quickly cause I found out some hidden things that weren't spoke of ( chain, idler, timing cover(s) also making your own gaskets for them etc) also found out some nifty things also that I incorporated into the swap along with getting more work done to the heads n what not. If you have a engine available to you for cheap then jump on it cause....I stopped counting after 4k into my swap n I'm still not done :-/ but if your up for the challenge the go for it

I think I know most of what is involved, however I will admit there hasnt been much info i've found besides yours and Garey's threads. To say that I would expect no surprises would just be stupid, and I understand that the little things can add up fast. Thats the major reason i've decided I will be taking my time with the build and not rushing things.

Would you mind sharing some of the observations you've made that havent really been documented anywhere? Do you also have any links to more good threads? I find when I google anything about the M60B44, I get a bunch of threads from people who dont know the difference between an M60 and an M62