LS1 vs LS3 for a track day car?

[kristov]

Would either be better or worse?

What would your choice be - set cost aside?


The LS3 would be kept stock and the LS1 would get a cam and intake - reliability is important.

I see a lot of conflicting information about oiling issues and reliability regarding the different LS-engines.


Hope someone with real world experience could shed some light and help me with the decision!

[The Dark Side of Will]

The LS3 will make more power more easily than an LS1 in any state of modification. Not sure what exhaust you're planning for the swap, but you might as well toss a cam and valvesprings into the LS3, at which point you're close to 500 HP if you built long tube headers for the swap, maybe 460-470 if you used shorties or modified stock manifolds. It takes a lot more to get an LS1 to that level of power. The rectangle port heads flow WAY more air than the cathedral port heads, and the extra ~500cc's and bigger bore doesn't hurt.

The two engines have EXACTLY the same oiling system in the block. The make or break item for on track reliability with slicks is the oil pan and baffling in it... Since the oil pan has to be made or heavily modified for the E30 swap, the two are pretty much equal from a reliability standpoint.

[kristov]

The LS3 will make more power more easily than an LS1 in any state of modification. Not sure what exhaust you're planning for the swap, but you might as well toss a cam and valvesprings into the LS3, at which point you're close to 500 HP if you built long tube headers for the swap, maybe 460-470 if you used shorties or modified stock manifolds. It takes a lot more to get an LS1 to that level of power. The rectangle port heads flow WAY more air than the cathedral port heads, and the extra ~500cc's and bigger bore doesn't hurt.

The two engines have EXACTLY the same oiling system in the block. The make or break item for on track reliability with slicks is the oil pan and baffling in it... Since the oil pan has to be made or heavily modified for the E30 swap, the two are pretty much equal from a reliability standpoint.

Do you consider Toyo R888 as slicks?

[The Dark Side of Will]

It basically comes down to cornering loads. >1g cornering loads lead to much greater requirements for oil control. Any R comp tire is going to exceed 1g, and slicks will do it moreso than DOT legal (or Euro equivalent) race tires.

The ZO6 and ZR1 Corvette semi-dry sump systems even have trouble with slicks in left turns that hold >1 g for more than 4 seconds.

Edit: Corvettes have problems above 1.4g's left turn for >4 seconds.

[kristov]

It basically comes down to cornering loads. >1g cornering loads lead to much greater requirements for oil control. Any R comp tire is going to exceed 1g, and slicks will do it moreso than DOT legal (or Euro equivalent) race tires.

The ZO6 and ZR1 Corvette semi-dry sump systems even have trouble with slicks in left turns that hold >1 g for more than 4 seconds.

So dry sump is the only solution?

[The Dark Side of Will]

Didn't say that.

Stock pans are usually adequate, but not fool proof for street tires. Look up the "Bat Wing" oil pan used on '97-'04 Corvettes and compare to the LS2 oil pan used '05 to whenever the LS3 came out. And compare to the GTO oil pan that's usually used in E30 swaps.

With DOT legal race tires, you'll need to invest time and money on baffled/trap door oil pan, accusump and any other tricks you can come up with. The exact setup will be subject to experimentation, and still adequate, but probably not fool proof. Are you actually in Europe? There are shops in the US which can build custom road-race oriented oil pans for LS engines economically.

With slicks, you'll pretty much need a dry sump to be fool proof

HOWEVER, that's dependent on how long you spend at high lateral g's. On an Autocross type of event, you can get by with fewer precautions because the time at high g's is broken up into small chunks. If you're on a road course with high speed sweeping turns and can spend several seconds above 1g lateral, then you'll need a more serious oil control setup.

[shiboujin]

Oiling will always be a concern with LS engines. Accusump minimum.

With that said, your question boils down to:
"Should I get an older engine or a newer engine?" Uh... newer one buddy. GM didn't go backwards, they went very far forwards with the LS3.

[bmk]

From what I recall my GTO oil pan had decent built in baffels. I even modified them to work still work when I chopped the pan. Let me see if I can find a picture.

[So Live]

I agree with these guys. Ls3 is a better option. Newer and more cubes will net more power more reliably. I've been researching quite a bit on a ~500whp LS engine and am reading that a 500whp ls1 is a pretty raw set up. This gets expensive too, customs heads, cam, valve train, maybe stroker to make it more reliable (more cubes). A ls3 is just about there with a relatively mild cam from what I'm reading. I think I'm going with a l92 truck motor which is essentially a ls3 with VVT and valve reliefs in the pistons to deal with the variable cam.

LS1tech.com is a great resource...

For oil pans I would have to think an aftermarket baffle/trapdoor set up for a gto would fit the modded gto pan with a little work. Accusump is a must as well.

[shiboujin]

Sikky makes a trap door high capacity oil pan. Also has a filter relocation system built in.

[CLM21]

I agree with these guys. Ls3 is a better option. Newer and more cubes will net more power more reliably. I've been researching quite a bit on a ~500whp LS engine and am reading that a 500whp ls1 is a pretty raw set up. This gets expensive too, customs heads, cam, valve train, maybe stroker to make it more reliable (more cubes). A ls3 is just about there with a relatively mild cam from what I'm reading. I think I'm going with a l92 truck motor which is essentially a ls3 with VVT and valve reliefs in the pistons to deal with the variable cam.

LS1tech.com is a great resource...

For oil pans I would have to think an aftermarket baffle/trapdoor set up for a gto would fit the modded gto pan with a little work. Accusump is a must as well.

Wait.... a cammed LS3 isnt getting you anywhere near 500rwhp. The rating of an ls3 is 425 to the crank. Actual power to the wheels is about a 15% drivetrain loss, which is around 360. You're not getting anywhere near 500rwhp with an ls3 without major engine work.