Discussion- 5-Lug swap vs. "Massive Brake" upgrade

[Karlspackler]

Obviously I want a larger and better brake system for my upcoming e30 project. I had all along planned on doing a 5 lug swap. Now that I see the quality and cost efficiency of the "massive" kit, I got to thinking about it.

What are your guys' thoughts?

Which will give you the best braking/handling combo?

1- E30 suspension with massive brake kit
2- E30 with E36 ///M 5 lug swap
3- Other ......... please specify.

Car background:
Car will be used for 1/2 street driving, some drag racing and ALOT of track/autocross events. It will be running anywhere from 240 to 280whp depending on boost level. It will be on GC track coilovers no matter what.

All of your opinions will be helpful. Thanks

James

[Karlspackler]

This is the Wilwood kit I am refering to when I say "massive" for those who dont know.

http://www.massivebrakes.com/

[StereoInstaller1]

James, there are currnetly some new developements in 5 lug swap tech.

E36 hubs on E30 spindles is one. E30M3 hubs on E30 trailing arms is another. BBK on 5 lug is easier and likely cheaper, or at least not more expensive.

If you aren't planning on the 5 lug part, I don't think anything needs to be said about Lees' quality. Massive BBK uber allus!

Luke

[Eric]

James, there are currnetly some new developements in 5 lug swap tech.

E36 hubs on E30 spindles is one. E30M3 hubs on E30 trailing arms is another. BBK on 5 lug is easier and likely cheaper, or at least not more expensive.

If you aren't planning on the 5 lug part, I don't think anything needs to be said about Lees' quality. Massive BBK uber allus!

Luke

are the spindle diameters the same between the E30 and E30 M3? i thought the E30 M3 was larger, and that the E36's had the same size as the E30 M3's.

I'm debating this too, i'm thinking either

E30 KW V3 w/ massive kit

or E30 M3 KW V3 w/ Massive kit.

I'm worried that i might have pre-mature falure on regular E30 hubs/bearings with next seasons ring damage. I'll have a year pass next year, so it should be alot of fun!

[StereoInstaller1]

Check out Mr Deagles thread

[Rocla]

Check out Mr Deagles thread

I was going to say the same, adapted 5-lug hubs with Massive hats rotors and calipers(Wilwood), would be nice setup.

[Karlspackler]

I am well aware of adapters, but that kinda defeats the entire purpose of a 5 lug swap as you dont get the better e36 m3 suspension.

Plus, you can find just as nice wheels in 4x100 so no need for the adapters. That is not an option.

[StereoInstaller1]

I am well aware of adapters, but that kinda defeats the entire purpose of a 5 lug swap as you dont get the better e36 m3 suspension.

James, I think you may be missing the point I am trying to get across.The only part of an E36 suspension that is "better" would be the bearings. E30M3 strut housings are basically E36 hubs on E30 struts.

E36 strut housings/spindles/hubs CAN be used on an E30 but the geometry will be wrong, the wheel will not be centered in the wheel well, etc.

E36 struts cause you much more work to correct the geometry, thus the general idea is to find a uesful way to adapt E30 struts to E36 hub/bearings....which is exactly what Mr.Deagle has succeeded in doing.

His "adapter" is NOT a 4 lug-to-5 lug adapter, but adapts E36 hubs to E30 spindles, basically creating the same effect as an E30M3 strut.

As far as an "advantage" to larger bearings or why BMW chose to use them on the M3, we can only assume it is all about the racetrack, dealing with the greater stress, etc. If that is your goal, Deagles plan fits that bill.

Plus, you can find just as nice wheels in 4x100 so no need for the adapters. That is not an option.

I agree wholeheartedly that 4 to 5 lug adapters are NOT an option.

Seems to me your basic question was "should I do 4 lug or 5 lug BBK?" If the question is should you do 5 lug because of wheel choices, that is entirely personal opinion. I really want MParalells in 17X8 on my E30. I have never seen these in 4 lug. Not saying they don't exist, but Iknow I can find them in 5 lug.

There are very few choices in 4 lug compared to 5 lug, especially without using spacers. I would think if the question is about wheel choices, 5 lug seems the logical option. If it is about BBK, Mr. Lee has provided a solution which is decently affordable and absolutely gorgeous.

Personally, I am gonna go the 300MM.de route, because I am happy with my wheels and do not aspire to greater performance.

Think it through and play your cards accordingly.

GL, HTH,
Luke

[Karlspackler]

Thanks Luke, I was under the assumption that the e36 m3 suspension, other than the brakes, was far superior. In handling that is, as well as brake better with the larger rotors and calipers from the e36 M.

So, if my car will handle equally on both set ups and the "massive" brakes are a MUCH cheaper alternative to the 5 lug swap with the e36 m3 brakes as far as I can see.... then that is the way I will go because of the $$$$.

Luke, what Deagle did... how much did that cost? I guess I dont even know what he did

[jmarch]

I've got an E30 M3 setup for sale if anyone is interested. Check the parts for sale section.

[Mr Deagle]

When my sleeve kit is done, you can buy one...so far 11 people want em

you would use e36 front hubs, and e30 m3 rear hubs

or z3m rear hubs...and z3m axles

[DEV0 E30]

I think for optimum track use, using Massive's kit would you'd be best off. New parts, cheaper 4 lug wheels, possibly even better brakes vs the e36 m3 brakes. Everyone rags on using E36 suspension parts because it changes the geometry, I don't know how much of a concern that would be on the track.

I have almost all the parts to get my 5 lug done with E30 m3 parts, but still the Massive kit appeals to me. In a lot of ways I wish I had gone that route, maybe next time around I will. Or I'll get Massive's 5 lug kit.

[StereoInstaller1]

I think for optimum track use, using Massive's kit would you'd be best off. New parts, cheaper 4 lug wheels, possibly even better brakes vs the e36 m3 brakes. Everyone rags on using E36 suspension parts because it changes the geometry, I don't know how much of a concern that would be on the track.

I have almost all the parts to get my 5 lug done with E30 m3 parts, but still the Massive kit appeals to me. In a lot of ways I wish I had gone that route, maybe next time around I will. Or I'll get Massive's 5 lug kit.

If I build another E30 for myself, I will do Deagles 5 lug sleeves, E30M3 rear hubs adn 5 lug big brakes to start with.

True 5 lug, no funky geometry, no odd parts, off the shelf perfection...plus MParalells! Wewt!

Luke

[2002maniac]

Since the availability of wide light 4x100 wheels is constantly getting better, the 5-lug swap has lost luster to me.

I'm in love with my 8" rotas and wilwoods

[Van Westervelt]

To reconfirm what has already been said and share my knowledge. I just finished one 5 lug swap, and have the parts to do my 2nd as soon as time allows.

Front
The e36 suspension parts on an e30 is far from ideal. It is actually more along the lines of the poor/easy way to 5 lug, without all the benefits. The e36 m3 brakes however, are a great way to get big brakes up front on the e30m3/e36 hubs.

Running any big brakes on a standard e30 front hub will destroy your wheel bearing/hub much faster. Not that it wont work, it just accelerates bearing wear. The reason that the e30m3 had 5 lugs, was for the larger bearing, hence larger brakes.

The long debate over e36 vs e30m3 is settled in that e30m3 parts are the only other suspension option that fits, and works very well without compramise. Although, it is expensive. Even on the e30m3 struts, the e36 m3 brakes, is a very good upgrade.

Mr. Deagle has provided a method to add the e36 m3 front brakes on, also adding in the larger hub/bearing. Hence eliminating the accelerated wear you would have on your standard e30 wheel bearing. Although I have not seen or used his peices, theoretically, it works and should be a great and inexpesive route.

Rear
On the rear, going with the e30m3 or ti/mz3 trailing arms is just fine. There are other routes such pressing in e30m3 rear hub flanges like I did, onto 325i trailing arms which are identicle to the m3.

You cannot use standard e36 rears on an e30. Not even the brakes.

There have been multiple things addressed in my original thread when I started mine. I am now finished with the swap. Mine was also not cheap.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=84209