Ecs tuning brake line issue

[bimmer630]

I had goodrige braided lines on my e30 and surprisingly my left front one tore/split/blew out...
I ordered a full set from Ecs tuning thinking id get them fast (they are nearby Cleveland where I live)
Well they sent lines that have what looks like a reverse bubble flared end for the front calipers. I got in touch and told them this was wrong and my car is held up because of their wrong parts, etc. well the guy said he was sending another kit and that never happened so I called again. They had no record of my first inquiry, so they started another return and emailed me a return label. I told them to make sure the next batch was right and sent them a pic of the difference in flares. I even told them their website pic shows the wrong lines so they must have an issue with packaging or whatever.
They send me another kit and not only are the fronts still wrong, but now the rear hoses have the wrong flare too!
I called and told them the deal... The guy is like "year make model??" I'm like dude it's an E30, they're all the SAME!
He told me to email a pic and 4 days later I get an email back saying
" our tech team says that's the right line, and even with the different flare, you should just tighten them down and run with it"
Seriously?

[JRiggs]

If that's the front line, looks like you have the wrong fitting on the old line as well

[bimmer630]

Its weird. Half of the lines I look up online have the one fitting, the other have have the other.
Stock brake lines for E30s show a fitting like ECS uses https://www.ecstuning.com/b-febi-par...lkThoCrY3w_wcB

http://www.rockauto.com/info/142/CE_15034000_Con.jpg

But many others show the style like my goodrige lines

http://www.bavauto.com/lview.asp?imgfile=assets/imglib500/bhk4000.jpg

[bimmer630]

Maybe ECS isnt retarded like I thought

[efficient]

I'm running the bma brake lines and they been good for like 3+years already

[bimmer630]

Looks like bma uses the same weirdo flare too.
I guess I'll just install them. At first glance it just looked completely wrong. I'm a tech and I've made hundreds of my own brake lines. These fittings looked SO different I was positive it was wrong, lol

[Madhatter]

The "weirdo" flare is a double flare. You make a bubble (metric flare), then with a different die you push the bubble flare in on itself. Makes a nice double wall flare thats very common on japanese stuff and aftermarket calipers like wilwoods, alcons, etc.

DO NOT JUST TIGHTEN DOWN ON THE FLARE. A metric bubble flare like what is used in our cars seals on the face of the flare, double flares seal inside the fitting and have a tapered seat in the female end of the fitting to match the shape of the flare. If you tighten down a double flare it will try to turn it inside out again and will almost certainly crack it, strip the thread or end up leaking. Regardless it is incredibly dodgy and only recommended by someone that doesn't know what they are doing.

if they are selling you the wrong shit, refuse it and get a refund. Alternatively, ask for a partial refund because its wrong and buy proper metric adapters. Earls make them and will be easy to find for example, you just need to know what sized nuts they are using on the lines. Will most likely be 3/8''-24. You'll need a male to male fitting to convert it, and a joiner.

592032 is the earls part number for a -3AN male to M10x1.0 male adapter. Joiners should be easy enough, just google 3/8''-24 brake pipe joiner.

only buy the above once you confirm what fitting they used though (this is the most common).

[bumada]

I have the ecs lines. Although my car is still torn apart, I have bled the lines and nothing is leaking.

[bimmer630]

The "weirdo" flare is a double flare. You make a bubble (metric flare), then with a different die you push the bubble flare in on itself. Makes a nice double wall flare thats very common on japanese stuff and aftermarket calipers like wilwoods, alcons, etc.

DO NOT JUST TIGHTEN DOWN ON THE FLARE. A metric bubble flare like what is used in our cars seals on the face of the flare, double flares seal inside the fitting and have a tapered seat in the female end of the fitting to match the shape of the flare. If you tighten down a double flare it will try to turn it inside out again and will almost certainly crack it, strip the thread or end up leaking. Regardless it is incredibly dodgy and only recommended by someone that doesn't know what they are doing.

if they are selling you the wrong shit, refuse it and get a refund. Alternatively, ask for a partial refund because its wrong and buy proper metric adapters. Earls make them and will be easy to find for example, you just need to know what sized nuts they are using on the lines. Will most likely be 3/8''-24. You'll need a male to male fitting to convert it, and a joiner.

592032 is the earls part number for a -3AN male to M10x1.0 male adapter. Joiners should be easy enough, just google 3/8''-24 brake pipe joiner.

only buy the above once you confirm what fitting they used though (this is the most common).

Ive seen it described as a "DIN" "Mushroom" flare http://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/ou...ication-How-to

And like Ive said before, IF you look up a stock replacement line for an E30, such as through rock auto parts etc, they show the same DIN flare style STOCK ! http://www.autohausaz.com/images/SKU...4321159882.jpg

[rmdashrf]

i have the ECS lines and been running them for two years, no leaks. I knew nothing about this double flare until I just read the above post.

Brakes are fantastic too.

[Madhatter]

Ive seen it described as a "DIN" "Mushroom" flare http://www.hoseandfittingsetc.com/ou...ication-How-to

And like Ive said before, IF you look up a stock replacement line for an E30, such as through rock auto parts etc, they show the same DIN flare style STOCK ! http://www.autohausaz.com/images/SKU...4321159882.jpg

It's a type of single flare that seems to have some people going crazy at the notion of using a single flare to seal a brake line. Seems to be more common reaction in the US where a single flare is usually taken to mean a single inverted style flare which is VERY weak and not designed for high pressure applications. Thats why you guys use AN - (dash) style double flare (inverted seat) type brake unions/fittings. Developed as a high pressure application. I think that's where the problem with USA made/specified parts comes from. They literally don't know/aren't used to dealing with anything else other than the inverted seat type as it is accepted type of brake fitting used there.

DIN/bubble flares are designed to seal on the same part of the flare, so it's very similar. The taper to the DIN flare is a little different though (the din is basically flat, the bubble has a taper), so the nuts are a bit different where it crushes down against the flare. Only real difference in these is the nuts, so you just change the die to suit them when flaring them. End result is a similar looking flare with a slightly different seating angle. You could interchange them though as the sealing surfaces are the same, so tightening the nut will compress the flare a little and create a good seal.

Here's a bubble flare I made to replace some brake lines in an E30.



It's a traditional bubble flare because the other side (where the brake nut slides up against the underside of the flare) has taper to it to match the style of nut.

This photo is a bit out of focus, but it shows the taper to the nut which matches the underside of the bubble flare. Helps support the flare without allowing it to crush down too far.



Only real issue with using DIN nuts and a bubble flare die is not so much that you will crush it down when fitting, but that you need to make 100% sure the flare is perfectly square as when it tightens against the back of the bubble flare it squishes down on the brake pipe which amplifies any slight imperfection. Sometimes mean the flare isn't square.

A double flare is basically the next stage from a bubble flare. It's commonly called an inverted flare because thats basically what happens. You take a bubble flare, switch the cone to a male type, then drive the bubble section back inside the pipe further. This takes the sealing surface from the outer edge with a matching female seat, to the inner surface (think, shaped like a trumpet) with a male inverted seat.

Here's an example. You can see the bubble part of the original flare, the inner bright surface is where the outer tip of the bubble flare was pushed in on itself to create a double wall, inverted flare.



The matching seat has a male inverted fitting that seals inside the flare.

i have the ECS lines and been running them for two years, no leaks. I knew nothing about this double flare until I just read the above post.

Brakes are fantastic too.

It's pretty wrong of them to basically just tell you to tighten down on them. They are completely different designs and its only sealing because you are crushing and distorting the brake tube to create a sealing surface with the other end. Not all brake tube is equal, some is very stiff and rather inflexible. This stuff tends to split down the seam in the tube when you distort it. You will probably get away with it using OEM lines if you aren't removing them again, but it's certainly the WRONG thing to be telling your customers as it's basically a major safety issue caused by either their lack of knowledge or carelessness.

I can flare up a few pieces of pipe and post a few pics with matching nuts if you guys want, can see them side by side. I've made hundreds of brake, clutch and fuel lines in various flare types for all different purposes. Here's an example of a complete replacement E30 clutch line. Both the hard line and the flexible piece up to the firewall were reproduced to replace old corroded and perished lines.

[Cephas]

About 20% offtopic but When are people going to stop using braided lines? They are not better quality than OE as we can see by this thread highligting yet another braided line that blew out after very little time in service.

If you are running these on a lapping day or track car you are nuts. Hell, if you are running them on the street where you can kill other people you are even more nuts. Save yourself the hassle and the money and get rubber lines...

Carry on talking about bubble flares, but seriously, get some real brake lines.

[Madhatter]

Braided lines are real brake lines. It's no different if you have rubber exposed or braid, if someone performs a shitty quality crimp, the lines aren't going to last.

OP's line looks to have fractured where the shield is to stop the line being damaged when it's whipped around. Normally that rubber sheath is inside the end of the crimped end so the metal can't come into contact with the line and cut through it. Doesn't look like that was the case for the OP.

[bimmer630]

My original goodrige lines are pretty old. At least ten years old actually.
They were on my last e30 and when I swapped the complete suspension/sub frames/drivetrain into my current body, I just re used the flex lines.


And again, looking deeper into it, I've found that BMW actually used the same flare on the Oem lines that Ecs uses. I was wrong, but mainly because I was comparing the flares to my goodrige lines.

I just don't get what the purpose of the female flare in the very tip of the fitting is. It doesn't actually contact any surface inside the caliper

[bimmer630]

Oh and as far as braided vs. rubber lines goes...
I've heard some tracks won't let you race if your car has rubber lines