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    Interest in aftermarket Al. Control Arms?

    As the modifying process continues with my E30 (that was bought to NOT modify) my next task is control arms. I am installing my new suspension and wanted to do an entire front end refresh while I am at it. The car only has 130k miles (which is low for E30's), but its still 17 years old. I looked into my options and I have two with the actual control arms, and several with bushings. I can go steel or aluminum with the actual pieces. I can then go with stock bushings, upgraded polyurethane bushings, or go all out with Delrin bushings.

    My view - my new suspension is nearly a full out race suspension, albeit progressive. Similar to J-stocks, actually just about the same but for a different class. I am replacing the shortened/valved Bilsteins with my Koni components that will make my front double adjustable and my rear rebound adjustable. I like the aluminum control arms, had them on my E30 M3, but still roughly $450-$550 new they are a bit steep. On top of that you add the bushings and its all of a sudden a $600 project. There are the cheap steel counter parts, $85 brand new each. Of course from my E30 side, cheaper is better. From my Porsche side, cheaper = spend more in the end. So I know now that I won't be happy with steel since there is better available. The problem with better is that it comes at a significantly higher cost, close to 200% more for about a 35% benefit.

    Another view is the mechanical side of me. Coming from a heavily modified and lowered Porsche, I quickly became familiar with what happens on lowered cars the original geometry...stuff starts to break. Well not necessarily break, but wear out significantly faster. Control arm bushings to name one of the easier parts to name. With the help of a fellow 968'er we measured the suspension geometry...I am talking every square inch of it to get wheel rates, motion ratios, etc... I was in the process of building a bespoke coil over setup (Koni 2812's) and the other member was trying to figure out why his car didn't handle as well since he lowered it and why his stock control arm bushings were becoming toast. Furthermore there were reports of ball joints binding. When I was measuring the motion ratios of the front suspension, I realized that I doubt we will have our ball joints bind, they are at an incredibly odd angle. This promotes wear as well as taking the car out of its stock geometry.

    There is a point where you can actually lower your car too much. The point where the central mass of the vehicle is below the effective suspension. This essentially means that your shocks and springs are higher up than the central mass of the chassis. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the suspension was not designed from BMW to accommodate this. With my shocks and springs I will be approaching this point. Anyone on J-Stocks, IE Stg 3./HR Race without pads, or coil overs at full droop will be in the same category. At this point your suspension is being worked beyond its measured limits - control arms, sway bars/links, bushings, as well as the struts/shocks getting more wear from excessive work.

    So what is the fix for us on super low E30’s? Well the simplest answer is raise the car up. Get the car back to its stock geometry. The problem with this solution is the performance and aesthetic of me likes the performance suspension. There are two parts attached to the strut, the tie rod and the control arm. The tie rod has no structural integrity, but is used to control toe and steering movement. Thus the control arm is responsible for the suspension geometry. The option is to have geometry correcting control arms created. This is not my idea, in fact it is taken directly from the Porsche 944 aftermarket division. They suffer from the same issues as we do with the E30.

    How are geometry correcting control arms made? This is the question I am struggling with. Currently I am working with an engineering friend on some CAD drawings to contemplate. The first option is to use square or round tubing welded together via the CAD drawings. Since CAD has the ability to determine pressure points and weak points, these would be taken into account. This is the cheapest option. Welds would all be professionally done (you don’t want to see my weldingJ) using the strongest TIG medium possible. The filler has a tensile strength of 84,000PSI which is more than that of chromoly, aluminum, or steel. Most likely these would be done with thick walled stainless tubing, which could then be polished or powder coated.


    The other option is a CNC milled piece of billet aluminum. This would be structurally stronger than welded tubing, look better, and be lighter. The downside is the cost of CNC tooling and machining. Literally it is about double the cost.


    Cost - This depends on what method we choose to take with manufacturing. I am willing to front the costs for machining or welding based on deposits or contracts, but as a whole it depends on a lot. It will cost me nearly the same amount to make 10 pieces as it will to make 1 piece. I am not looking for a profit…I honestly just want a set myself. Thus it would be my cost divided by the number of orders. I haven’t received the CAD drawings yet, but my CNC machinist guessed roughly $4500 for 10 sets. Welding would be less, but I would need to tac a prototype together for them to weld. There would be a lot more R&D associated with the welding option. I am also need to see what the cost will be to sonic test all the welds to insure the quality.

    #2
    I don't think that 99% of E30 owners are going to be really interested, unless it proves a SIGNIFICANT gain over steel. I have steel on one car and AL on the other car and I sure as hell cant tell a difference driving on the street (MOST e30s)...
    :: PNW Crew ::
    '87 325 4dr, '74 2002

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      #3
      this seems more for serious race than for the avg e30
      Your signature picture has been removed since it contained the Photobucket "upgrade your account" image.

      Originally posted by TimKninja
      Im more afraid of this thread turning into one of those classic R3v moments, where Pizza gets delivered.

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        #4
        Possibly, but also something to consider is to upgrade to aluminum control arms is going to cost you more than these are looking. So you get more for your money. Its just an idea I was having, and I may have one set made for me to see how it goes. Its just silly because for the cost of one set its only marginally more to have more made.

        Wes

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          #5
          I'm interested.
          How exactly are these going to "correct" the suspension geometry on a lowered car though? My car is slammed right now, and I know my suspension geometry is suffering because of it. I am going to be raising my steering rack a little bit soon to help with the angle of the tie rods, but I would like to know exactly what is going to be changed with the control arms.

          -Erik

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            #6
            I think the market would like a control arm that can be used to run E36 5 lug parts up front without bunk assed camber. Face it, the E30 M3 front struts are expensive. If you damage one because you have some off track incident or something like that, you have to shell out $$$ to replace it. Contrast that to E36 M3 parts, those are cheap as hell.

            Something with fully serviceable and replaceable ball joints would be great.

            What's wrong with tubular steel?

            Originally posted by whysimon
            WTF is hello Kitty (I'm 28 with no kids and I don't have cable)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by erik325i View Post
              I'm interested.
              How exactly are these going to "correct" the suspension geometry on a lowered car though? My car is slammed right now, and I know my suspension geometry is suffering because of it. I am going to be raising my steering rack a little bit soon to help with the angle of the tie rods, but I would like to know exactly what is going to be changed with the control arms.

              -Erik
              The angle of the tie rods won't be adjusted. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do to the control arms to adjust that. What is happening is at your droop right now your control arm is past optimal (about level) and at about a 15 degree angle upwards (if anything like mine). What these are going to do is adjust that angle closer to stock while keeping the same ride height that you desire. This can be obtained via two methods and I won't know what is and what isn't going to work until the CAD drawings are completed. The first is to machine the piece to fix the angle in the actual control arm itself. The problem with this is it won't be a viable option for stock replacement, only a race replacement. The second is to use spacers and longer pins on the ball joint. This would allow me to use them stock or modified. The downside is the durability of extended pins and spacers. I have two goals; to make them usable in stock or lowered form, and to make them fully rebuildable be the end user. The second is much easier to accomplish than the later. They will have spherical ball joints and I am looking into a CNC replacement of the control arm bushing piece, as to make that spherical as well. Everything will be aircraft grade or better and I will have or offer a complete rebuild kit. Average tie rod ends will be about $25, spherical bearings about $15. The idea would be to have it fully rebuildable for less than $50 which I think is possible.

              FredK,

              I don't have access to an E36 5-lug swapped car right at this moment. The other downside is that I am pretty confident the arms won't be interchangable. This means I would have to pay for the tooling for a completely different arm. Its going to cost me about $2500 to get everything setup to be machined, so that means I would need enough E36 5-lug swapped cars to commit. I have also not measured a 5-lug geometry to see if this is even an issue when completely lowered. Its not an issue on all cars.

              Wes

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by backtrail69 View Post
                I don't think that 99% of E30 owners are going to be really interested, unless it proves a SIGNIFICANT gain over steel. I have steel on one car and AL on the other car and I sure as hell cant tell a difference driving on the street (MOST e30s)...
                That's nice to know. I was thinking about getting the aluminum ones when I did my engine swap. They are $$$, and I know that "less unsprung weight" is always better, but I wasn't exactly sure that if I was going to actually pull the trigger. If I want less unsprung weight, I might as well get a "massive" BBK, which is supposed to be lighter too. Wheels? well, I'm keeping those to 15" Euroweaves with 225's, so I don't think that I'm going to be REALLY heavy.
                Slicktop City!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Nevermind

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I didn't read the whole post... but I got the Jist of it that, you want to make new components to lower the roll centre characteristics of the e30, no ? as well as make an adjustable control arm ?

                    If I have missed another point... I'm stupid for not reading the whole post :P

                    but these mods have been done...



                    As you see the inner pick up has been raised, and the outers are dropped with a roll centre spacer, with the case of a std e30 strut, you can do something like these roll centre spacers.



                    Yes I know this is an E36 M3, but it's the same principal


                    While I'm on about this I might as well add in that, my DTM/GrpA style control arm design is at my engineer waiting to be machined, aswell as 2inch roll centre and a bump steer spacers.

                    Then on another note... has anyone ever thought that the Ally control arms might have more inherent flex in them, than the steel ones ? I mean if u look at them u will see they have roughly the same amount of material as the steel ones.

                    I know I dont have a test to prove this... it just seems like a logical conclusion to me.

                    :)
                    Last edited by SA E30; 05-14-2008, 01:59 AM.

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                      #11
                      Here's a pic of the AKG setup they now sell for $1200!!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by SA E30 View Post
                        While I'm on about this I might as well add in that, my DTM/GrpA style control arm design is at my engineer waiting to be machined, aswell as 2inch roll centre and a bump steer spacers.
                        What size wheels are you going to have to run to clear the tie-rod when using a 2" spacer. I have a 1" spacer, and it definitely does not look like there is room for another 1" before the tie-rod hits the inside of the wheel. And this is with an 18" wheel...

                        -Erik

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by erik325i View Post
                          What size wheels are you going to have to run to clear the tie-rod when using a 2" spacer. I have a 1" spacer, and it definitely does not look like there is room for another 1" before the tie-rod hits the inside of the wheel. And this is with an 18" wheel...

                          -Erik
                          I take it you are using a E30 M3 strut? I'm planning on running on a 17" wheel to start with, but at a later stage I plan on running a 18" E46 M3 front rims, to try squeeze a 265 under the arch.

                          I'm using a E36 M3 front strut so that might make the difference, I havent actually checked if they clear, but it's not a big issue to get new ones machined up, as they are much easier to manufacture for the E36 strut than the E30 M3.

                          EDIT: I dunno what is up with my math, somehow I calculated 30mm as just inder 2inches, where it's actually 1.1inches :S

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I use 25mm roll center spacers on E30M3 struts and have plenty of clearance on 17's. I think 30mm would be fine with 18's.

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