Switching between ceramic and metallic pads.

[Sean]

Ok, so I've read before that you shouldn't switch between Ceramic brake pads/semi-metallic (like the Axis Ultimates, like I have now) and fully metallic pads. Is this true?

I kind of want to give the Hawk HPS's a try, but my understanding is I need new rotors to do this correctly? This will be my third round of pads of the Axis Ultimates on these rotors, they've actually lasted a long time. Although, I haven't gotten really far down, because each time I check them is before an HPDE and there isn't enough left to keep my confident during the DE.

Just did some searching too, I found the Porterfield Brakes too: http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/pads.html

There's been lots of discussion, that shows up in my search, regarding the Axis Ultimates and Hawk HPs. But, does anyone know how those Porterfield's are?

Some people said the Ultimate's have poor cold bite, but I've never experienced that. Nonetheless, if I can't switch pads, I'll stick with the Ceramics.

Thanks!

[AlarmedBread]

I just got a set of porterfield street pads, I'll let you know how they hold up this weekend :)

My 'ghetto' way of switching pads when they still had good rotors was to get some cheap, very hard metallic pads, the ones that say "CAUTION EXTREME ROTOR WEAR OMGZ" on the box, use that to clean up any pad compound then put in the new ones, or just get the rotors turned.

[Sean]

I just got a set of porterfield street pads, I'll let you know how they hold up this weekend :)

My 'ghetto' way of switching pads when they still had good rotors was to get some cheap, very hard metallic pads, the ones that say "CAUTION EXTREME ROTOR WEAR OMGZ" on the box, use that to clean up any pad compound then put in the new ones, or just get the rotors turned.

LOL Yea, dude, think I could test your brakes between one of your runs? I want to order them soon, so they are at home when I get there.

You got the Porterfield RS-4's? I'm going to be heading to Hastings early Saturday morning, and hopefully get there around lunch time ish.

A ton of reading on here tends to tell me:
- Hawk HP+'s are loud as hell, and are very very hard are rotors.
- Hawk HPS's are good street pads - but how do they last on the track?
- Supposedly Axis Ultimate's aren't recommended for the track, but I've already done 3 track events with Axis Ultimate's. I have gotten some fade before, but they did pretty good. But, I always felt there was room for improvement. Could that be why?


I wanna know how those Porterfield's are. Right now I'm deciding between Hawk HPS's, Porterfields and Ultimates.

[jlevie]

You won't see any real difference between Hawk HPS and Axxis Ultimates. Both are an HPS type pad and are pretty much equivalent. If you want to experience a decided improvement in braking, try set of Hawk HT-10's or PFC-01's (my personal favorite) at the track. Either are a bit objectionable on the street (they squeal), but on the track you have brakes that will stop the car "yesterday"!

Hawk HPS and HT-10's are compatible as far as the rotors are concerned. You can run the HPS pads on the street and switch to the HT-10's at the track. I'm so addicted to the performance of the PCF-01's that I run those all the time. The squeal is there, but it bothers me not in the least.

[Sean]

You won't see any real difference between Hawk HPS and Axxis Ultimates. Both are an HPS type pad and are pretty much equivalent. If you want to experience a decided improvement in braking, try set of Hawk HT-10's or PFC-01's (my personal favorite) at the track. Either are a bit objectionable on the street (they squeal), but on the track you have brakes that will stop the car "yesterday"!

Hawk HPS and HT-10's are compatible as far as the rotors are concerned. You can run the HPS pads on the street and switch to the HT-10's at the track. I'm so addicted to the performance of the PCF-01's that I run those all the time. The squeal is there, but it bothers me not in the least.

You have me intrigued. I found myself wanting more brakes on the track, and it sounds like it's the Ultimate's fault.

Are both of those pretty tough on the rotors? Not that it's a big deal to me. And they are both metallic, right? How are they cold - my understanding is you can either have amazing HOT pads and so-so cold or decent in both conditions. Have you tried the ultimates or HPS's?

PFC-01's - who's the manufacturer of these and where could I get them?

[jlevie]

I've used Axxis Ultimates, Hawk HPS, Hawk HP+, Hawk HT-10's, and PFC -01's. The Ultimates and HPS pads are fine on the street, low noise, good cold bit, decent friction). The HP+ pads are a step up in braking performance and have good cold friction, though not quite as much as a HPS type street pad. But they are noisy, especially when cold.

The race pads are a world of difference. They are rougher on rotors, don't have a lot of cold bite, and are noisy. But once heated up that provide awesome braking friction. I prefer the PFC-01's over the HT-10's. In my opinion the PFC-01's have a more linear response and yield a slightly better pedal feel. I don't find the cold performance to be a problem, though I don't regularly drive my E30 on the street. Since turning it into a SpecE30, it only goes out on the street once a week on average.

As far as I know, the only source for the PFC-01's is Bimmerworld. Some time back, James Clay took an E30 with HT-10's out for a few laps and was underwhelmed with the brakes. He talked Performance Friction into supplying the 01 compound (what they use on the Bimmerworld cars) in an E30 fitment. Or at least that's the story I was told.

Since you track the car, I'd highly recommend installation of front brake cooling ducts. A very nice kit is available from FactoryThree Performance.

[Sean]

I've used Axxis Ultimates, Hawk HPS, Hawk HP+, Hawk HT-10's, and PFC -01's. The Ultimates and HPS pads are fine on the street, low noise, good cold bit, decent friction). The HP+ pads are a step up in braking performance and have good cold friction, though not quite as much as a HPS type street pad. But they are noisy, especially when cold.

The race pads are a world of difference. They are rougher on rotors, don't have a lot of cold bite, and are noisy. But once heated up that provide awesome braking friction. I prefer the PFC-01's over the HT-10's. In my opinion the PFC-01's have a more linear response and yield a slightly better pedal feel. I don't find the cold performance to be a problem, though I don't regularly drive my E30 on the street. Since turning it into a SpecE30, it only goes out on the street once a week on average.

As far as I know, the only source for the PFC-01's is Bimmerworld. Some time back, James Clay took an E30 with HT-10's out for a few laps and was underwhelmed with the brakes. He talked Performance Friction into supplying the 01 compound (what they use on the Bimmerworld cars) in an E30 fitment. Or at least that's the story I was told.

Since you track the car, I'd highly recommend installation of front brake cooling ducts. A very nice kit is available from FactoryThree Performance.

This is some EXCELLENT information. Nothing beats first-hand knowledge. I did some reading myself, and figured out they are Performance Friction, found an interesting thread here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=680830. They tend to agree with what you said regarding the linear response and easier modulation - so that's great!

The PFC-01's are far from acceptable in daily driving, it seems. My car had over 20k put on it last year, and I need instant bite on brakes that are freezing cold (sometimes below 0 F) so I definitely wouldn't be able to run PFC01's all the time.

It sounds like the PFC-01's would be a dream to have on the track, though. Although, they are expensive, they would probably last me quite sometime cause I don't hit the track all that often. I also can't seem to find the 01's on Bimmerworld's website, I found the Z-rated pads, but nothing else.

You mention that the HP+'s are a bit better in braking performance - do you mean they are better on the track and are good for daily driving, just noisy? Maybe I could save myself some money, and use the HP+'s on the track and the Ultimates or HPS's for daily? Anything that would give me a bit better braking on the track will make me a happy camper!

Do you know if these brakes work well with each other? Ths is, if I did the following, would the brakes work fine given the change in pad material:

Daily: These sound like the best daily driver options
- Hawk HPS
- Axxis Ultimates

Track: These sound like the best track options
- Hawk HP+ (cheaper than the rest)
- PFC-01 (hella expensive)
- PFC Z-Rated (how are these??)


The ultimate's do dust a lot, and although the dust doesn't seem to be corrosive, it'd be sweet to get less dust. Know of daily pads that would dust a bit less?

I have stock brake ducts - is the ducting you speak of that much more improved?

[PiercedE30]

Brake duct backing plates replace the metal shield behind the rotors. Then you bolt up the new backing plates and run some ducting to the brake cooling ducts next to the fog lights.

[Sean]

Brake duct backing plates replace the metal shield behind the rotors. Then you bolt up the new backing plates and run some ducting to the brake cooling ducts next to the fog lights.

Ohhh, I see. Well then, that would definitely be better than stock.

Hmmm.


EDIT:

Did some more searching, looking up prices, etc etc.

Looks like the Axxis Ultimates are truely the best street pad I can get. And, for almost less than $80 for the entire car, it's almost impossible to beat price wise.

Since I won't be doing a DE for probably almost a year (I'd love to do one sooner, but the fact of the matter is - Rapid City, SD is no where near a track nor will I have much time while going to school. :-\), I have some time to dial in my brake system for track events. But, I really haven't been able to figure out if I can switch pads on the same rotors. If I run Ultimate's for my daily's, can i switch to PTC-01's or Hawk HP+'s for the track, then back and still have good brakes?

note Found this page (http://www.bmw-sg.com/BMW.SG-Member-...lpine-Clarity/). Looks like someone is running the PTC-01's for track and Axxis Ultimate's for street. I think this may be my course of action! Someone confirm my thinking.

New question Would brake ducts possibly eliminate any fade that may occur with the ultimates? That's the main issue I saw.

[AlarmedBread]

With good cooling, I was running Mintex street pads w/ azenis at mam in the middle of august with no issues. I will show you my home depot setup. Sure you can take the car for a spin sometime this weekend. :)

[Bimmerman325i]

I just ordered a set of HP+ pads for DD and auto-x/track use for my e30. I have a good friend who runs the HP+ all year round(incl. CO winters) and swears by them for both auto-x/track and DD use. I've ridden in his car, and they do produce awesome braking force. They are very noisy, but with some anti-squeal goo on the back they would probably be better.

Another pad you may want to look into are the Ferodo DS2500 pads-- I have these on my subaru(pre e30 auto-x car) and DD on them also. They are the Ferodo equiv to the HP+, and aren't noisy at all. They work quite well, and also have good cold bite. They are pricey.

[jlevie]

Switching between Hawk HPS and HP+ or HT-10 pads isn't a problem. I can't say if switching between Ultimates might be a problem.

What pads needed for the track is a strong function of your driving skills. A beginner is not likely to have a problem with any HPS type pad, but an intermediate driver will probably need something more capable to avoid fade. Paradoxically, an expert can likely get away with a pad choice that would result in fade for one with lesser skills. That's because the expert is using seriously compressed braking zones which put less heat into the brakes and allow more cooling time.

[Sean]

Switching between Hawk HPS and HP+ or HT-10 pads isn't a problem. I can't say if switching between Ultimates might be a problem.

What pads needed for the track is a strong function of your driving skills. A beginner is not likely to have a problem with any HPS type pad, but an intermediate driver will probably need something more capable to avoid fade. Paradoxically, an expert can likely get away with a pad choice that would result in fade for one with lesser skills. That's because the expert is using seriously compressed braking zones which put less heat into the brakes and allow more cooling time.

You know, I think that's why my ultimate's didn't hold up. Since my brake pedal has so much travel, I know FOR A FACT that I wasn't getting full braking force while doing heel-toe. So, I'm going to fix my pedal travel, and see how it goes at the next DE. :)