Tender/Helper springs.

[Massive Lee]

No not really. Just with the inherent lifting of the inside of the car during corner I was something that will push the inside wheel down....Even if at 50lb/in that's only a little bit.

I reread the whole thread as I felt I was missing something. My conclusion is that you are using the wrong medecine for the wrong reasons. And not thinking properly. In fact you don't need springs to push the inside wheels down, you need a spring rate that will make the outside suspension push up, and prevent body roll.

If you want to keep the inside wheel from lifting, then you should keep bodyroll at a minimum by raising spring rate, and fine tune with swaybars (but carefully), or lower your roll center by dramatically modifying your suspension geometry.

What is your fronr and rear rates? What tires do you use? What other suspension mods do you have?

[DSP74]

What do you suggest to keep the spring seated?

[Hellabad]

See picture.

You go ahead. This is America, you do whatever you want.

Come back and re-read my post in a year.


Jay

[DSP74]

Looking at the flat shape of the lower spring, I would tend to think it is a spring for which the only purpose is to be strong enough to push the spring into the upper perch. With a rate that is possibly close to only a few #. That's what helper springs are for. I doubt it is a tender spring.

I left out the pictures to tidy up the thread as it moves along...

The bottom spring yes looks like a helper spring. Eibach considers a tender spring to be a higher rate spring and they list them as high as (with a quick google search-there may be more options) 250lbs.

And the bottom springs are probably almost no rate and are made for keeping the springs seated......

The springs on the way are H&R 50lb/in springs-in which case I have to assume they would still be a helper spring as the spring WILL be compressed totally at static ride height. See spring below (these are the actuall springs)\\


EDIT: Also the springs in the Vorshlag picture appear to be a higher rate than the black springs in your post....

[Massive Lee]

Looking at the flat shape of the lower spring, I would tend to think it is a spring for which the only purpose is to be strong enough to push the spring into the upper perch. With a rate that is possibly close to only a few #. That's what helper springs are for. I doubt it is a tender spring.

[DSP74]

Won't a 50# tender spring be compressed at all time? You car is probably heavier than 150# per corner. So what's the use? if you told me you wanted a ofter spring than main rate to absorb small inconsistencies in the pavement, then perhaps a 200# tender would do. But 50# is most likely useless as it will always be stacked.

If it weren't stacked at all time, the pretty quick transition from 50# to (probably) your 600# would feel funny...

Have you ever scaled your car? Do you have those weights, especially for the rear corners. We can figure out how much a given spring will extend by figuring how far it will compress for the load it's carrying.\
From their we'd be able to tell if indeed a tender spring with a small rate would push the tire down or not....

Or maybe it's only use is in keeping the spring seated when the car is jacked up. Either way=worth it IMO.

See picture. Direct from the Vorshlag crew.

[DSP74]

Won't a 50# tender spring be compressed at all time? You car is probably heavier than 150# per corner. So what's the use? if you told me you wanted a ofter spring than main rate to absorb small inconsistencies in the pavement, then perhaps a 200# tender would do. But 50# is most likely useless as it will always be stacked.

If it weren't stacked at all time, the pretty quick transition from 50# to (probably) your 600# would feel funny...

No your right, it will be compressed all the time. Except when the car is jacked up. And I 'think' it may come into play a bit during cornering....

If the spring is entirely unloaded during cornering without a tender spring, there would be no difference from transitioning from the spring unseated to seated vs seated via help from a tender, and fully loaded.......if that makes any sence

[DSP74]

Hella, whats the correctly shaped upper/ lower perches for rear suspension?

And what rear shocks are people using to keep these super short springs on the perches?

Id like to know too and i dont want to be running a limiter strap or something silly like that.

Thanks!

There can't possibly be any shock that could both keep the spring seated, and not lift inside tires on a track or autox course. A shock that would be short enough to prevent the spring from dropping out, would without a doubt lift the inside rear tire.

[Massive Lee]

Won't a 50# tender spring be compressed at all time? You car is probably heavier than 150# per corner. So what's the use? if you told me you wanted a ofter spring than main rate to absorb small inconsistencies in the pavement, then perhaps a 200# tender would do. But 50# is most likely useless as it will always be stacked.

If it weren't stacked at all time, the pretty quick transition from 50# to (probably) your 600# would feel funny...

[DSP74]

A 50lb/in spring at 3" free height should be fully compressed with 150lbs. So while I don't think 50lbs would make a huge difference it would help. And 150 without a doubt would...


The Vorshlag guys had/have a similar setup w/tenders on the rear of their E30. FWIW.

[So Live]

Hella, whats the correctly shaped upper/ lower perches for rear suspension?

And what rear shocks are people using to keep these super short springs on the perches?

Id like to know too and i dont want to be running a limiter strap or something silly like that.

Thanks!

[Hellabad]

I can't keep quiet about this. Without elaborating, PLEASE don't try to use a helper on an e30 rear, and if you insist on using a TENDER, then weld them together (just like the factory race cars did in 1988.)

If you try to use a conventional coupler or method, the whole assembly can pop out. Besides that, 50 pounds force (which is probably closer to 20) wont push the tire "down" even the tiniest bit to make a difference.

Do it right, and use rear shocks that are specially designed to reduce droop and retain the spring with correctly shaped upper and lower perches.

Thats all, I don't want to see anybody get hurt.

helper = ultra low rate to be completely compressed at rest
tender = higher rate which may not be compressed at rest


Jay Morris

[Van Westervelt]

My units were made by H&R. Got them through TurnerMS shipped out of H&R Seattle. This was a while back though.

[DSP74]

No not really. Just with the inherent lifting of the inside of the car during corner I was something that will push the inside wheel down....Even if at 50lb/in that's only a little bit.

Plus when the car is jacked up the springs will drop out of position big time.


I may incorporate some sort of helper/tender up front also but that'll be a bit in the future.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Going for dual rate?