Congratulations to Vorshlag!

[2002maniac]

I was reading GRM magazine and there are C5 corvettes, Factory Five roadsters, etc in the challenge. How does someone build those for $2011?

That would not have been the $20xx challenge. What you read was likely the UTCC or ultimate track car challenge. There is no budget restriction for UTCC.

dinanm3atl: Labor is free. Trading is free. You could theoretically buy 20 $100 parts cars, sell $1005.49 worth of parts off of them, and be left with stacks of parts to use or trade away for parts you actually need. This would be totally within the rules. I don't think people take it to that extreme, but you get the picture. Sure there are cheater, but I think 99% of the challenge cars are legit.

[kts]

Look like Diamond Racing stock car wheels.

Aero Racing.

(post 9 has more info on them here: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...light=vorshlag )

[2002maniac]

No way that car was that cheap...

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done...

[dinanm3atl]

This is a question to just better understand the 'challenge'. It is supposed to be a 2011 dollar car correct? Minus selling stuff... I see a ton of these challenge cars and think to myself... How on earth is this happening? 2011 + 1005.50... V8 E30?



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All builders shall spend no more than $2011 on their cars. The purchase price of the car must be equal to or less than $2011. Title fees, registration and insurance are not counted toward the budget. Shipping (or transportation costs) of the car and parts used in the building process must be counted toward the budget.
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All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2011 budget.
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Parts that are not used may be traded or sold up to the initial cost of the car or parts deal. In other words, if you buy a $500 Challenge car, you can recoup up to $500 of your budget by selling parts. (If you do turn a profit by selling parts from your car, we suggest that you take your significant other out to dinner to compensate them for having a $2011 car hanging around the house.) Once the recuperation limit has been reached on a car or parts deals, trading is not allowed.
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The maximum amount of money that can be recouped in a budget is $1005.50. This includes parts cars, parts deals and the Challenge car itself.
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Parts that are given to the competitor by a company or person must be figured into the budget at fair market value. Sponsorships are allowed, but the value of any product or service that is used in building the car must be figured into the $2011 budget.

That would not have been the $20xx challenge. What you read was likely the UTCC or ultimate track car challenge. There is no budget restriction for UTCC.

dinanm3atl: Labor is free. Trading is free. You could theoretically buy 20 $100 parts cars, sell $1005.49 worth of parts off of them, and be left with stacks of parts to use or trade away for parts you actually need. This would be totally within the rules. I don't think people take it to that extreme, but you get the picture. Sure there are cheater, but I think 99% of the challenge cars are legit.

Trading is not free. You can recoup up to 1005.50 MAX. If your original purchase price was 500 dollars that limit is only 500. It's an LS Swapped E30 with a widebody... MAX dollar mount possible in terms of parts is ~3K on this.


Rule 21 - Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value.


Sure 'labor is free' but this rule says fair market value. What is fair market value for a custom driveshaft to mount up an LS to an E30 and then to the rear diff? They also have custom 'boxed' rear end/reinforcement under the car. Etc. A replacement driveshaft that is a rebuilt OEM driveshaft for my 97 M3 is 400-600 dollars. A custom one? Custom engine mounts? Those custom headers... what is fair market value for custom 1 off headers for an LSX into an E30? Those two items alone I would wager are at least 50% of the budget if I was to go and try to buy them at fair market value.

My point is I see this challenge and read in the magazine each year and sit there and think "How on earth is the math done to make this work?" It's not just Vorshlag(no offense to them I have bought parts from them and love them) but it seems 95% of the cars are 'cheater cars'.

[2002maniac]

1. trades are not recoup. recoup is selling an engine for $300 which could go back into your budget. There is no restriction on say, trading an engine for a set of wheels...
2. I believe they did the work at Terry Fair's home garage, not at Vorshlag.
3. fair market value is for parts you already had on hand before beginning the build, or parts which are given/donated to you.
4. Custom engine mounts, headers, fabrication, etc. is budgeted only as cost of materials not FMV.

All entrants are required to keep meticulous budget records. These records are scrutinized by the judges at the event and people have been kicked out for not having their records in order.

[2002maniac]

btw, here's the car My Dad, Brother and I built for the challenge (someday, when I can take off enough time from work and afford to tow it 4500 miles round trip):



We would have to take 1 sparco out though as they wouldnt both fit in the budget

[dinanm3atl]

What is done to that car? It looks more realistic but Michelin Slicks and 996 Turbo Twist. What is 'fair market value for that'?

My point being is you look through the rules and like the Lemons/Chump car I believe the original idea has been lost. Sure you can tweak the budget and let's be honest it might be Fair's garage but that garage(from the photos in the build thread) is far different from my garage. And what can you 'trade' off an e30 assuming trades are 100% free?

You look at the performance of some of these cars and when you think their budget is 2,011 dollars... and it runs a 10.5 in the 1/4? Call me a hater or whatever it just seems like not what it was supposed to be. I have 2K to play with but I am not going to waste my money because I know I can't build a Widebody LS E30... It's just like the Ultimate Track Car Shootout and 1-Lap. Waiting for someone to bring an Ex Rolex 24 Winning GT3 RSR they put some catalytic converters on.



And anyone with more experience clarify the 'trade' rule? Buy E30 325iS for 500 off CL. "Trade" the M20b25 for a complete running c6 z06? My friend didn't want it anymore and the timing belt broke on his E30...

[2002maniac]

Completely gutted, custom coilover sleeeves on stock bilstiens, aluminum circle track radiator, taurus fan, Setrab oil cooler, lexan windows, stock 4.5 with 3" exhaust. widened/cut bodywork to fit the 18x10 all around

We bought one set of twists for $300, the other for $350. Sold all four fronts individually for $100 each. Michelin slicks were $10 each. That takes the wheel/tire budget up to $340, the largest individual expense, but it sticks like hell on the auto-x course.

We're on the lookout for cheap Chevy V8 conversion parts. As is it only has 220hp.

I can totally understand your doubts. Some of the cars are unbelievably good.

[dinanm3atl]

Yah. I guess I just lack the understanding of how a widebody LS Swapped E30 is a '2011 dollar car'. I just personally feel it is defeating the original thought of the event. Kind of like Lemons/Chump car. Some are bringing crap like it was intended to be but others... somehow are bringing in some stuff that is scooting around the track.

[2002maniac]

i think the ultimate intent of the event is to give grm some interesting editorial content and i think a homebuilt v8 widebody e30 is perfect for that. Regardless, you've got to admit they have got some serious car building skills.

[kts]

Yah. I guess I just lack the understanding of how a widebody LS Swapped E30 is a '2011 dollar car'. I just personally feel it is defeating the original thought of the event. Kind of like Lemons/Chump car. Some are bringing crap like it was intended to be but others... somehow are bringing in some stuff that is scooting around the track.

One thing that should be noted is that the Vorshlag car has an LM7 engine which came out of a truck. It's based off of the LS but there are TONS of them in junkyards out there everywhere. The T5 transmission they are using are also plentiful at junkyards.

So it's not like they traded their 2.7e engine for an LS out of a Z06.

Most of the other stuff they are using are other OEM parts that are very cheap that can be easily acquired as well.

I also believe that part 21 of the rules is for work that you get done at a shop by other people (aka work you can't do yourself.) So all the fab work they did they only had to pay for materials. (mounts, widebody, etc)

Terry does have a pretty serious garage at his place from various photos I've seen on different build threads over the years, one of the benefits of living in Texas where land is a bit cheaper.

The one thing they did that might be considered a bit of a loophole was the use of a scattershield to mate the trans to the engine. However according to the rules this was legal to do and it was outside of the budget.

It's all in the build thread.

While it's not easy to do this kind of stuff it can be done at low budgets for various challenges like $201x, Lemons, etc.

[iansane]

Yah. I guess I just lack the understanding of how a widebody LS Swapped E30 is a '2011 dollar car'. I just personally feel it is defeating the original thought of the event. Kind of like Lemons/Chump car. Some are bringing crap like it was intended to be but others... somehow are bringing in some stuff that is scooting around the track.

I really don't think it's defeating the original idea at all. It's a bunch of guys who got together and scrounged parts and ideas and built something amazing. They've gone through something like three T5 transmissions but obviously are only going to count the purchase price of whatever one is in the car now. They're fabrication skills are just a ways above most people. I don't know you but do you fabricate anything for your cars? Would you be peeved if you had to "charge yourself" for those hours? I would, I'm a bit more meticulous than most when building junk from scratch.

If you want to see a build that would blow your mind as far as budgets go, look at this one.

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39639&highlight=muttstang

[samiam3356]

Hell yeah! thanks for sharing