I have driven the future and it is Tesla

[gwb72tii]

There's no limit besides driver fatigue and speed limits if you drive along the proposed Supercharger network. But you wouldn't possibly overlook information and just ignore someone's point, would you?

Herbivor's point was the 30 min charge would be his comfortable leg-stretching / bathroom / food break every 5 hours anyway and wouldn't greatly impact his road trip behavior. Drive 5 hours, break for half hour, drive for 5, repeat. Back of the napkin math = 24/5.5*300miles = ~1300 miles/day @ 60 mph if you had two drivers. Even if you never had to stop for gas period and had an infinite gas tank, you could only go 1440 miles/day @ 60mph with two drivers swapping seats while in motion.

thank you for making my point again
there is no network today is there? and until there is a way for anyone to jump in their EV and go wherever they want it will remain a niche product.
and by anywhere i mean the ability for people to arrange their routes of travel without having to stay on some supercharger network. what if i want to go thru riverton wyoming on my way?

[mrsleeve]

thank you for making my point again
there is no network today is there? and until there is a way for anyone to jump in their EV and go wherever they want it will remain a niche product.
and by anywhere i mean the ability for people to arrange their routes of travel without having to stay on some supercharger network. what if i want to go thru riverton wyoming on my way?

And this is my point, You cant venture off route 80, to go see some sights along the way or take an alternate route when they shut the interstate down because of the blizzard thats going on. What if you want to go see Mt Rushmore, or Smokey Mt national park, or the Devils tower. Sure you can get from the bay area to NYC but what the point of a road trip if if you cant detour to see some sights along the way.

[rwh11385]

thank you for making my point again
there is no network today is there? and until there is a way for anyone to jump in their EV and go wherever they want it will remain a niche product.
and by anywhere i mean the ability for people to arrange their routes of travel without having to stay on some supercharger network. what if i want to go thru riverton wyoming on my way?

So wait... your point was that their developing Supercharger network will lead to range anxiety because it's not yet completed?? Seems an overly weak and stupid argument to make.

If were you informed at all, you'd know they have already created the first portion it, in secret, before the announcement.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/24/tesla-supercharger/

These stations were created before the announcement, so contrary to your assumption there already is a network today.


http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-k...ging-stations/

Thus far, six Superchargers have been installed in California, theoretically providing a corridor of free energy to traverse the entire state, and to travel to the popular vacation regions of Lake Tahoe and Las Vegas. The company has plans to expand the network across the country to New York next year, and says it will reach 100 stations nationwide by 2015.

The starting network, according to Car and Driver is already installed, so people can drive from Lake Tahoe to Vegas for free on the network already.



Here is what he wants in place within two years:


And long-term:




Maybe try to be educated on a subject you are debating about instead of making ignorant claims to support your biased view?

If you don't think he'll see it through, remember that doubting Tesla is betting against the one guy with a private space capsule that carries loads to the ISS for NASA and he also happens to own a solar panel company.

[rwh11385]

And this is my point, You cant venture off route 80, to go see some sights along the way or take an alternate route when they shut the interstate down because of the blizzard thats going on. What if you want to go see Mt Rushmore, or Smokey Mt national park, or the Devils tower. Sure you can get from the bay area to NYC but what the point of a road trip if if you cant detour to see some sights along the way.

I'm pretty sure you can't drive a gas-powered car to Hawaii either, but the final Supercharger network ought to cover the contiguous 48...

[mrsleeve]

I see

So your routes are still going to be subjected to going the long way around because you have to stay with in range of a charge station or missing or not being able to go where you may want to go, because you cant stay with in range of a charge station even on the Planed grid of them.

In your example Tahoe to Vegas. You can run down 395 to 95 for a total of 450 miles and 7 hours with your conventional fueled car in maybe one fuel stop at most in reno. To do that in a your EV you would have to run all the way back to the bay area and down the 101 and then over for a total of 805 miles, and nearly 13 hours. Just laying that out there.

[rhE-30]

You gotta start somewhere, when ICE automobiles came to be there wasn't a gas station every couple blocks.

I don't understand the argument against technological progress.

[rwh11385]

I see

So your routes are still going to be subjected to going the long way around because you have to stay with in range of a charge station or missing or not being able to go where you may want to go, because you cant stay with in range of a charge station even on the Planed grid of them.

In your example Tahoe to Vegas. You can run down 395 to 95 for a total of 450 miles and 7 hours. To do that in a your EV you would have to run all the way back to the bay area and down the 101 and then over for a total of 805 miles, and nearly 13 hours. Just laying that out there.

You could drive the long way now, to travel for free. And looking at the later maps, they will add more stations in CA. And there will be other [slow] stations from whatever provider (GE, etc.) around if you want to divert, but might have to charge over night or a long dinner break (and pay maybe). It's not like you can only charge on the Supercharger network period, it just is cheap and quick that way.

You are already set on gas-powered vehicles and if you want to wander about on random trips, you could even get a PHEV that would enable you from having to worry about plugging in as long as you have access to a pump along the way... but this would satisfy someone like herbivor's desire to drive coast-to-coast for free. And not worry about being away from home to recharge since there will be large network of proprietary charging stations available.

Changing the argument from saying it would have range anxiety because it doesn't exist yet to try to say you can't wander around away from the network is Moving the Goalposts.

At what point do you expect the network to be at to satisfy your desire for the ability to wander? A charging station every 50 miles? 25 miles? I find it hard to imagine a company would pay to install a station every 25 miles across the US, but the planned network would be a good start and allow people to drive the major routes without worry about finding one. If any tourist stops want to lure people off the powered path, they could always install one of their own...

[rwh11385]

You gotta start somewhere, when ICE automobiles came to be there wasn't a gas station every couple blocks.

I don't understand the argument against technological progress.

People have always been critical of new technology. I think gwb doubted the telephone, saying only two people had one so it was a worthless novelty.

If people hated on the idea of the government spending money on the research and creation of a computer network to allow for widespread electronic communications, we wouldn't perhaps have the Internet or this forum today. But skeptics are the forgotten people of history, when innovation leaves them behind.

Few people remember the guy who said heavier than air flight was impossible but everyone remembers the Wright brothers.

[VinniE30]

The P&R forum is leaking!

[mrsleeve]

You could drive the long way now, to travel for free. And looking at the later maps, they will add more stations in CA. And there will be other [slow] stations from whatever provider (GE, etc.) around if you want to divert, but might have to charge over night or a long dinner break (and pay maybe). It's not like you can only charge on the Supercharger network period, it just is cheap and quick that way.

You are already set on gas-powered vehicles and if you want to wander about on random trips, you could even get a PHEV that would enable you from having to worry about plugging in as long as you have access to a pump along the way... but this would satisfy someone like herbivor's desire to drive coast-to-coast for free. And not worry about being away from home to recharge since there will be large network of proprietary charging stations available.

Changing the argument from saying it would have range anxiety because it doesn't exist yet to try to say you can't wander around away from the network is Moving the Goalposts.

At what point do you expect the network to be at to satisfy your desire for the ability to wander? A charging station every 50 miles? 25 miles? I find it hard to imagine a company would pay to install a station every 25 miles across the US, but the planned network would be a good start and allow people to drive the major routes without worry about finding one. If any tourist stops want to lure people off the powered path, they could always install one of their own...

So you go the short way and talk a hotel in to letting you plug in and take 15+ hours, or go the long way and do it for free in 13, seams like a lose lose proposition to me.

when I stop for fuel I am in and out in less than 15 mins including taking a piss. Normally closer to 5-7 in and out. Remember where I live, Sometimes it can be hard to find a damm fuel station as it is now, let alone a EV station.

Look its neat, novelty, niche, market item. and if it fits your needs and life style great, it dose not fit mine at all yet in the future maybe, but it will have a long ways to go to get there.

How long till the various govts begin to tax the EV market for the road use taxes??? We all pay them why should the EVs be exempt?? Why should the rest of us be subsiding with our tax dollars form both ends and all points in between. From development, to production, to sales, to end usage. This I think is one of my biggest hang ups with the whole sham for me. You me and everyone else is out there paying so herbie can drive from coast to coast for free you dont see an issue with that.

[rwh11385]

So you go the short way and talk a hotel in to letting you plug in and take 15+ hours, or go the long way and do it for free in 13, seams like a lose lose proposition to me.

when I stop for fuel I am in and out in less than 15 mins including taking a piss. Normally closer to 5-7 in and out. Remember where I live, Sometimes it can be hard to find a damm fuel station as it is now, let alone a EV station.

Look its neat, novelty, niche, market item. and if it fits your needs and life style great, it dose not fit mine at all yet in the future maybe, but it will have a long ways to go to get there.

How long till the various govts begin to tax the EV market for the road use taxes??? We all pay them why should the EVs be exempt?? Why should the rest of us be subsiding with our tax dollars form both ends and all points in between. From development, to production, to sales, to end usage. This I think is one of my biggest hang ups with the whole sham for me. You me and everyone else is out there paying so herbie can drive from coast to coast for free you dont see an issue with that.

Like I said, you are already set on gas-powered vehicles, but others might not. Others might not find any diversion from a comfort zone in a remote part of the country a failure either. Most people live in urban areas close to proposed network, not where you are focused on. And people who would want a Tesla S probably wouldn't think it was too much of an inconvenience to stick to the major highway routes instead of wandering backwoods ones. Just because you want to criticize the impact of your schedule in your area of the country, doesn't mean others wouldn't adopt it. It serves the majority of needs for majority of the people and gives unlimited range within the proposed corridor.

It's not like companies are going to base their plan on your desires but could very well make a business on serving herb's or California's huge supply of wealthy tech-lovers.

Yeah, my dad has the same concerns... but there's not a significant level of real need yet as there's not a bunch of EVs on the roads right now. When they are reached a healthy adoption rate (some target ~1%), why would fuel be the required method to provide road use tax? Does this provide a perfect association currently? Are there ZERO other methods for taxing road use that the government has available?

Instead of speculating that EVs would never pay for road use, there are some places looking to debate what the most useful methods would be. http://www.oregon.gov/odot/hwy/rufpp/pages/ruftf.aspx They also are talking about how if we all have 55 mpg cars, how will the present taxes pay for road repairs anyway... gasoline use is declining as people get cars to sip less of it.

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/evstakeholders_issueslist_may112012.pdf

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/new_road_financing_model_a_distance_based_charging_system.pdf

According to the task force, an EV driver going 15,000 miles a year would be charged about $90, or $.06 cents per mile starting in 2014, when approximately 17,000 EVs are expected to be on Oregon's roads.

Objecting to something just because you don't know how something may be done isn't a good argument. It is a reasonable concern to have, but not a basis to attack an idea entirely. (Calling it a sham yet investigating policies that aim to deal with it)

[gwb72tii]

nobody is set on gas powered or against technology
Tesla is the only viable electric car IMHO today. they have style and performance.
But who is going to spend $60k for a car you cannot drive across the country on your own route, or $60k for an commuter car.
they are not, today, a viable alternative for the vast majority of people over their e30.

[rwh11385]

nobody is set on gas powered or against technology
Tesla is the only viable electric car IMHO today. they have style and performance.
But who is going to spend $60k for a car you cannot drive across the country on your own route, or $60k for an commuter car.
they are not, today, a viable alternative for the vast majority of people over their e30.

Well, I would imagine Elon Musk believes there are people who are going to spend that much on the cars, regardless of your doubt, and probably not targeting people who drive E30s. There apparently are a good amount of people who want the $60K car though....

"We don't have a demand problem; we've got over 12,000 people who put down a $5000 deposit for the car," Musk says.

But the Model S's isn't his final target either... like the Roadster just a step along the way:

"I have to be careful here," he said, noting that Tesla is a publicly traded company and that he could cause problems by issuing a promise. "This is our aspiration, not a definite date," he said. Musk said he initially had planned to bring the "Gen 3" Tesla to market in 2016, "but now we're thinking early 2015."

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1208_q_and_a_elon_musk_ceo_tesla/viewall.html#ixzz247giwHaf

If we are successful enough to get to our third-generation vehicle, our $30,000 vehicle, then we'll be able to use the whole [Fremont] plant. It'd be three to four years [from now]. It would be quite similar to the Model S but scaled down. Probably about the size of a BMW 3-series or an Audi A4.

I'd like to try to think of some innovative things we can do on that third-generation vehicle, but the focus will be primarily on having a great car at $30,000, which will require a lot ingenuity. So, we'll be on third-generation powertrain technology, we'll scale up production by an order of magnitude, roughly, and then the car itself will probably be twenty to thirty percent lighter.

Regardless of your concerns about EVs, I probably wouldn't bet against an entrepreneuring engineer who is worth $2B and the closest person to Tony Stark I can think of.

[mrsleeve]

The OR plan is nothing more than double or triple taxation for "road use" on conventionally fueled cars, and opens a slippery slope with a mandated GPS data logger in your car that the various govts have ready and consistent access to. Big privacy issues there with that plan, all though not surprising a state like OR is going to try and get away with it.

[rwh11385]

The OR plan is nothing more than double or triple taxation for "road use" on conventionally fueled cars, and opens a slippery slope with a mandated GPS data logger in your car that the various govts have ready and consistent access to. Big privacy issues there with that plan, all though not surprising a state like OR is going to try and get away with it.

Clearly you didn't read the linked presentation... it discusses how the public is apprehensive about GPS mandates since their first proposal. And suggests on-board communications of the odometer reading, or just an online self-reported form even.