I wrote this for e46fanatics but copied it here, even though most e30 owners don't bring their cars to the mechanic :)
I've been in the European aftermarket, service and parts industry for almost a decade and I wanted to share some knowledge that i've learned over the years. If this is in the wrong section, sorry!
Service
-Diagnostic fee: Most shops charge this because they need to pay their technician to look over the car (it buys you an hour, sometimes more of time). Sometimes you can get this waived if the problem was very easy to diagnose (ie expansion tank), or they will build the price of the diag into the repair. Most good shops will take the diag time and thoroughly look over the whole car for an hour (to take care of the customer but also to maximize the opportunity of selling service)- but some will just charge you an hour to hook up to their computer (keep in mind autologic diagnostic computer runs $15,000 + add ons, they have to pay for this too..) Diagnosing a car isn't a perfect science, the stranger the problem (read: audi) the higher the probability the tech is just taking an educated guess (read: dr house). This is where taking your car to the dealer or a good local indy can pay off, they've seen many of these cars and have probably seen the issue before whereas your local lube mechanic is just guessing
- Book Time when quoting out a repair most shops look up the billable time for the repair (such as in mitchell or alldata and multiply it times their hourly labor rate + parts). This is good to know when price shopping, ask them what the book time is and see where the price discrepancy is between shops.
- Technicians at most service centers (other than tire/lube places) are flat rate. This means they only get paid their hourly rate x book time to replace the part on the car. Ie: PCV on an e46 is 4 hours (iirc), they would get paid 4x $25/30 (whatever their rate is). This system has its positive and negative results.
*-Positive: the faster a tech gets (without messing up, ie a come back), the more money they make. This is a great incentive to install parts quickly and properly (I know of a tech who can pop in a CCV/oil sep in an e46 in around 45 mins- and has a 99% success rate)
*-Negative: When you complain about a problem to the service writer (more about them next) they take the complaint over to the tech and he looks over the car and comes back with what s/he believes the problem is. The system naturally entices them to claim the problem is time consuming. Tech honesty/a good service writer can save you big bucks here.
Service Writers These guys have the tough job (a little pat on the back *to myself here- lol) of protecting the shops interest, the mechanics decision and keeping you happy. Think of this like a real-estate agent for both the buyer and the seller of the property (ie continually overextending themselves) They should be able to translate into laymens terms what the repair involves and why it's useful. After the repair is completed you should be able to ask them to point out what was replaced on your car for piece of mind. If you want to see your old parts after a repair, ask for it before the work is done as the parts usually end up in a massive recycling bin or trash. Asking for them after the work is annoying to the service writer (as they'd have to go dig them up) and also results in them believing you don't trust the shop's work.
* -Most places have service writers working on commission (BMW's service writers are 100% commission). You can usually find out how they are paid by how pushy they are (especially for "wallet flushes" ie: coolant flush/etc)
* -These guys usually want to keep you happy, as any negative feedback to the shop comes back to haunt them directly (ie BMW service questionaires, or for a local shop, yelp, google or citysearch review). If bad feedback is given, the manager will traditionally find the service writer in charge of the job and have a coming to jesus with them.
* -Even though most service writers try to keep their pricing and parts margin set in stone, you can usually get a discount. This is especially true if both repairs are in the same area and there is labor overlap (ie doing a ccv and an oil filter stand gasket or a waterpump and a serpentine belt). I would casually ask the writer "hey isn't there some overlap on these repairs". In terms of parts mark-up, this to pay in case there is a warranty claim on the part. (ie: if that water pump fails, the shop has to pay the tech again to remove and reinstall it, as the manufacture will traditionally only pay for the defective part. This is why some shops will let you bring your own parts is, but not give you any kind of warranty on the work.
These guys are often the people you want to have on your side, especially if you are trying a new solution to a common problem. Lets say you need a new disa valve because yours is leaking at the seal. Most shops will just replace the valve. However you could point them to the thread where a forum member has found a suitable replacement seal from a third-party provider. If you approach the service writer and say you would like to be a guinea pig for this repair, link them to the thread via emal, they might just entertain the idea of doing it as it could possibly be a solution they could use for other customers down the road (that said, this will not work with BMW dealers, only indy shops). Once you have the service writer on your side, they will try to convince the tech to try this solution. The tech usually only wants to perform tried and true repairs, so this can be a challenge, as they would rather ship and car and not have to worry about it coming back to haunt them.
Shop supplies Shop supplies are charged by shops to cover gloves, brake parts cleaner and other disposables used while servicing your vehicle. Its a normal practice used by many shops and should result in a cleaner repair (if the shop uses the allocated money properly)
Lastly, if you keep bringing your car back for service over and over again for similar problems to the same shop two things might be happening:
-They are not repairing it properly, or don't have the knowledge to do the work on this car.
-The car is a giant POS (read 745i), don't take this personally, some cars just love to live at the shop.
Take-away advice on the service side:
-Don't be pushy or annoying to the service writer or the tech as word spreads about your behavior and your car. This will usually result in a rushed job and less attention to detail. Calling every few hours to see if your car is ready falls under this category, the shop wants your car out of there (so they get paid and the tech gets paid).
-Reserve being pushy when you feel the shop/tech/service writer is giving you the run around. If the manager is always hearing you complain/cry wolf on every little detail, they won't go out of the their way as much when something really goes down.
-Be educated about the repairs being done your car and ask about the types of parts being used- it can save you money/headaches in the long run (ie come here and ask a fellow fanatic :thumbsup: even if you aren't doing the work to your car. That said, don't be cocky about it either.
-Bring donuts, it'll often get you a lot more than you think :)
Parts:
There are five different types of parts available for our cars, which often dictate pricing and availability to the market.
1. OE BMW. These are parts that have the BMW symbol on them and are only available through BMW or an authorized retailer (such as ECS TUNING, Bavauto, etc). These parts traditionally carry a price premium, are usually the best fitting/working parts and sometimes there are no alternatives.
-In terms of pricing & availability: All these parts come from the same place, BMW has a few distribution facilities around the country (such as jacksonville & nazareth) and of course your local dealer will have some inventory (ie: ecs tuning will usually show an ETA of 2-3 days to acquire the part from BMW if your order them). There really isn't much of an advantage to buying these parts from anyone else except your dealer because there isn't much price flexibility. BMW sells these parts at MSRP (ie $100) to walk-in customers, at 20% off to CCA members or any shop with tax id (ie $80), and at twice wholesale (matrix pricing) to the service dept (ie $160). Only a very few vendors can get deeper than 20% off pricing from BMW to sell the parts back at the same price as you can get them from your dealer. The idea is, if you need a BMW branded part, get it from your dealer (they'll comp ground shipping, but you'll have to pay sales tax) Even if you are not BMW CCA the parts guy will usually give you the 20% off if you are a regular/enthusiast.
Here is another bit of information regarding BMW pricing:
2. OEM These are the parts that are made by the original equipment manufacture but don't carry the BMW stamp on them. These parts are high quality and usually a much cheaper alternative than OE BMW. They are very close to the quality as OE BMW parts but sometimes fit/finish suffers a bit. Some examples of this is that they will be parts that are ever-so-slightly different to fit more than one make or model. For instance an BMW e30 thermostat will be boxed with more than one gasket as it will also fit a contemporary Audi 90. Or that e30 timing belt from continental for OE packaging will be made by conti GERMANY verus conti china/mexico made for OEM packaging. They might have also been made at very slightly lower tolerances than the OE parts at great cost savings to OE parts. Most of the time these can be used with no adverse effects. Some of the common brand names are: febi, sachs, bilstein, lemforder, behr, etc.
- In terms of pricing and availability these are often acquired by a worlpac or other distributor/vendor. Worldpac buys these in large volumes and stores them in warehouses around the country (Fort Lauderdale, Charlotte, Columbia, Newark, etc) and will usually overnight the parts to the vendors at no charge. Probably 90% of the bmw parts sold by bavauto, ecs tuning, autohausaz, etc are worldpac. They all carry a one year warranty (through worlpac) and are very cheap. There is virtually no downside to using these parts other than the wait to get them. However, the trick is since all the parts come from the same place, check and see if there is a worldpac distribution center around you and a vendor who resells them (this will = overnight shipping for the cost of ground shipping) Moreover most resellers don't really have fixed pricing structure (like BMW) and usually buy the stuff from worldpac at the same price, so you can get them to price match someone else. Also, no use buying parts from vendors if you have a tax ID number as you can probably get them directly from worldpac (depending on volume)
3. Cheap Chinese knock-offs These are cheap equivalent products that try to mimic the OEMs but at a much cheaper price point. Some stuff is worthwhile (like ebay headers) but mostly this stuff doesn't last as it's not built to the same stringent specifications as the oem (both could be made in china, but to different tolerances). Buying cheap parts is rarely a good idea, unless you are a masochist :)
-pricing and availability About the same as worldpac (wp actually resells alot of these parts under their own brand name FEQ- beware) and also auto part international. These parts are dirt cheap to make and usually cary a healthy mark up to cover any warranty issues. Anything that seems to good to be true on ebay/fcp/etc usually falls under this category.
4. Reman parts These are often sold by your local distributors (napa, advance auto, autozone, etc) as they don't resell OE BMW parts. These usually start out as OE parts that are traded in, rebuild and resold. Not too bad of an option if you need something asap or on a budget (late model ps pumps, calipers etc usually work out pretty well from these guys)
-parts and availability: local, fairly cheap. Can only get a discount if you have a tax ID #
5. Aftermarket Performance This category covers such parts as lowering springs, shocks, software etc. Often times there are main distributors/importers for these parts in the country. H&R, for instance has a presence here on the west coast. They might sell directly to you but often at a higher price point than their preferred resellers (ie tirerack) will sell it to you. This is to let the resellers deal with customer service issues and keep their operation lean and volume-based. On the other hand, companies such as brembo don't have a presence here and choose a vendor here (race technologies) to import their parts for them. Often buying the parts from the importer can yeild better knowledge, better coverage in case of a warranty claim and sometimes lower pricing. These importers get the part at for instance 40% off MSRP and sell them at 0-10% off msrp to retail customers or 20-30% off msrp to other vendors so they can sell it at 0-10% off msrp. Which means if you are buying from some other vendor they will have a lot less margin in the product than the importer.
Another big factor is whether or not they have stock on hand. H&R, and many others will charge a drop-ship fee if your order the product from a vendor who doesn't have the part on hand. In other words if you buy a set of coilovers from x vendor who doesn't have them it'll cost you more to get them shipped directly to you than if they have already bought the part and are carrying it on the shelf. This is also pertinent if you are trying to buy a part that is backordered from most vendors. Let's say 325xi coil-overs are not available from most of the places you check but some random website says they are in stock. CALL THEM FIRST to double check with them, more then likely they have just forgotten to update their website.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask any questions.
I've been in the European aftermarket, service and parts industry for almost a decade and I wanted to share some knowledge that i've learned over the years. If this is in the wrong section, sorry!
Service
-Diagnostic fee: Most shops charge this because they need to pay their technician to look over the car (it buys you an hour, sometimes more of time). Sometimes you can get this waived if the problem was very easy to diagnose (ie expansion tank), or they will build the price of the diag into the repair. Most good shops will take the diag time and thoroughly look over the whole car for an hour (to take care of the customer but also to maximize the opportunity of selling service)- but some will just charge you an hour to hook up to their computer (keep in mind autologic diagnostic computer runs $15,000 + add ons, they have to pay for this too..) Diagnosing a car isn't a perfect science, the stranger the problem (read: audi) the higher the probability the tech is just taking an educated guess (read: dr house). This is where taking your car to the dealer or a good local indy can pay off, they've seen many of these cars and have probably seen the issue before whereas your local lube mechanic is just guessing
- Book Time when quoting out a repair most shops look up the billable time for the repair (such as in mitchell or alldata and multiply it times their hourly labor rate + parts). This is good to know when price shopping, ask them what the book time is and see where the price discrepancy is between shops.
- Technicians at most service centers (other than tire/lube places) are flat rate. This means they only get paid their hourly rate x book time to replace the part on the car. Ie: PCV on an e46 is 4 hours (iirc), they would get paid 4x $25/30 (whatever their rate is). This system has its positive and negative results.
*-Positive: the faster a tech gets (without messing up, ie a come back), the more money they make. This is a great incentive to install parts quickly and properly (I know of a tech who can pop in a CCV/oil sep in an e46 in around 45 mins- and has a 99% success rate)
*-Negative: When you complain about a problem to the service writer (more about them next) they take the complaint over to the tech and he looks over the car and comes back with what s/he believes the problem is. The system naturally entices them to claim the problem is time consuming. Tech honesty/a good service writer can save you big bucks here.
Service Writers These guys have the tough job (a little pat on the back *to myself here- lol) of protecting the shops interest, the mechanics decision and keeping you happy. Think of this like a real-estate agent for both the buyer and the seller of the property (ie continually overextending themselves) They should be able to translate into laymens terms what the repair involves and why it's useful. After the repair is completed you should be able to ask them to point out what was replaced on your car for piece of mind. If you want to see your old parts after a repair, ask for it before the work is done as the parts usually end up in a massive recycling bin or trash. Asking for them after the work is annoying to the service writer (as they'd have to go dig them up) and also results in them believing you don't trust the shop's work.
* -Most places have service writers working on commission (BMW's service writers are 100% commission). You can usually find out how they are paid by how pushy they are (especially for "wallet flushes" ie: coolant flush/etc)
* -These guys usually want to keep you happy, as any negative feedback to the shop comes back to haunt them directly (ie BMW service questionaires, or for a local shop, yelp, google or citysearch review). If bad feedback is given, the manager will traditionally find the service writer in charge of the job and have a coming to jesus with them.
* -Even though most service writers try to keep their pricing and parts margin set in stone, you can usually get a discount. This is especially true if both repairs are in the same area and there is labor overlap (ie doing a ccv and an oil filter stand gasket or a waterpump and a serpentine belt). I would casually ask the writer "hey isn't there some overlap on these repairs". In terms of parts mark-up, this to pay in case there is a warranty claim on the part. (ie: if that water pump fails, the shop has to pay the tech again to remove and reinstall it, as the manufacture will traditionally only pay for the defective part. This is why some shops will let you bring your own parts is, but not give you any kind of warranty on the work.
These guys are often the people you want to have on your side, especially if you are trying a new solution to a common problem. Lets say you need a new disa valve because yours is leaking at the seal. Most shops will just replace the valve. However you could point them to the thread where a forum member has found a suitable replacement seal from a third-party provider. If you approach the service writer and say you would like to be a guinea pig for this repair, link them to the thread via emal, they might just entertain the idea of doing it as it could possibly be a solution they could use for other customers down the road (that said, this will not work with BMW dealers, only indy shops). Once you have the service writer on your side, they will try to convince the tech to try this solution. The tech usually only wants to perform tried and true repairs, so this can be a challenge, as they would rather ship and car and not have to worry about it coming back to haunt them.
Shop supplies Shop supplies are charged by shops to cover gloves, brake parts cleaner and other disposables used while servicing your vehicle. Its a normal practice used by many shops and should result in a cleaner repair (if the shop uses the allocated money properly)
Lastly, if you keep bringing your car back for service over and over again for similar problems to the same shop two things might be happening:
-They are not repairing it properly, or don't have the knowledge to do the work on this car.
-The car is a giant POS (read 745i), don't take this personally, some cars just love to live at the shop.
Take-away advice on the service side:
-Don't be pushy or annoying to the service writer or the tech as word spreads about your behavior and your car. This will usually result in a rushed job and less attention to detail. Calling every few hours to see if your car is ready falls under this category, the shop wants your car out of there (so they get paid and the tech gets paid).
-Reserve being pushy when you feel the shop/tech/service writer is giving you the run around. If the manager is always hearing you complain/cry wolf on every little detail, they won't go out of the their way as much when something really goes down.
-Be educated about the repairs being done your car and ask about the types of parts being used- it can save you money/headaches in the long run (ie come here and ask a fellow fanatic :thumbsup: even if you aren't doing the work to your car. That said, don't be cocky about it either.
-Bring donuts, it'll often get you a lot more than you think :)
Parts:
There are five different types of parts available for our cars, which often dictate pricing and availability to the market.
1. OE BMW. These are parts that have the BMW symbol on them and are only available through BMW or an authorized retailer (such as ECS TUNING, Bavauto, etc). These parts traditionally carry a price premium, are usually the best fitting/working parts and sometimes there are no alternatives.
-In terms of pricing & availability: All these parts come from the same place, BMW has a few distribution facilities around the country (such as jacksonville & nazareth) and of course your local dealer will have some inventory (ie: ecs tuning will usually show an ETA of 2-3 days to acquire the part from BMW if your order them). There really isn't much of an advantage to buying these parts from anyone else except your dealer because there isn't much price flexibility. BMW sells these parts at MSRP (ie $100) to walk-in customers, at 20% off to CCA members or any shop with tax id (ie $80), and at twice wholesale (matrix pricing) to the service dept (ie $160). Only a very few vendors can get deeper than 20% off pricing from BMW to sell the parts back at the same price as you can get them from your dealer. The idea is, if you need a BMW branded part, get it from your dealer (they'll comp ground shipping, but you'll have to pay sales tax) Even if you are not BMW CCA the parts guy will usually give you the 20% off if you are a regular/enthusiast.
Here is another bit of information regarding BMW pricing:
Originally posted by SkiFree
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- In terms of pricing and availability these are often acquired by a worlpac or other distributor/vendor. Worldpac buys these in large volumes and stores them in warehouses around the country (Fort Lauderdale, Charlotte, Columbia, Newark, etc) and will usually overnight the parts to the vendors at no charge. Probably 90% of the bmw parts sold by bavauto, ecs tuning, autohausaz, etc are worldpac. They all carry a one year warranty (through worlpac) and are very cheap. There is virtually no downside to using these parts other than the wait to get them. However, the trick is since all the parts come from the same place, check and see if there is a worldpac distribution center around you and a vendor who resells them (this will = overnight shipping for the cost of ground shipping) Moreover most resellers don't really have fixed pricing structure (like BMW) and usually buy the stuff from worldpac at the same price, so you can get them to price match someone else. Also, no use buying parts from vendors if you have a tax ID number as you can probably get them directly from worldpac (depending on volume)
3. Cheap Chinese knock-offs These are cheap equivalent products that try to mimic the OEMs but at a much cheaper price point. Some stuff is worthwhile (like ebay headers) but mostly this stuff doesn't last as it's not built to the same stringent specifications as the oem (both could be made in china, but to different tolerances). Buying cheap parts is rarely a good idea, unless you are a masochist :)
-pricing and availability About the same as worldpac (wp actually resells alot of these parts under their own brand name FEQ- beware) and also auto part international. These parts are dirt cheap to make and usually cary a healthy mark up to cover any warranty issues. Anything that seems to good to be true on ebay/fcp/etc usually falls under this category.
4. Reman parts These are often sold by your local distributors (napa, advance auto, autozone, etc) as they don't resell OE BMW parts. These usually start out as OE parts that are traded in, rebuild and resold. Not too bad of an option if you need something asap or on a budget (late model ps pumps, calipers etc usually work out pretty well from these guys)
-parts and availability: local, fairly cheap. Can only get a discount if you have a tax ID #
5. Aftermarket Performance This category covers such parts as lowering springs, shocks, software etc. Often times there are main distributors/importers for these parts in the country. H&R, for instance has a presence here on the west coast. They might sell directly to you but often at a higher price point than their preferred resellers (ie tirerack) will sell it to you. This is to let the resellers deal with customer service issues and keep their operation lean and volume-based. On the other hand, companies such as brembo don't have a presence here and choose a vendor here (race technologies) to import their parts for them. Often buying the parts from the importer can yeild better knowledge, better coverage in case of a warranty claim and sometimes lower pricing. These importers get the part at for instance 40% off MSRP and sell them at 0-10% off msrp to retail customers or 20-30% off msrp to other vendors so they can sell it at 0-10% off msrp. Which means if you are buying from some other vendor they will have a lot less margin in the product than the importer.
Another big factor is whether or not they have stock on hand. H&R, and many others will charge a drop-ship fee if your order the product from a vendor who doesn't have the part on hand. In other words if you buy a set of coilovers from x vendor who doesn't have them it'll cost you more to get them shipped directly to you than if they have already bought the part and are carrying it on the shelf. This is also pertinent if you are trying to buy a part that is backordered from most vendors. Let's say 325xi coil-overs are not available from most of the places you check but some random website says they are in stock. CALL THEM FIRST to double check with them, more then likely they have just forgotten to update their website.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask any questions.
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