George Graves and his volt meters

[hooken m]

george i purchased your temp sensor, which i never used, but received it in a very quick time frame, but this is complete bullshit. this is not how business is conducted. sell some things you dont use return peoples money and slowly regain your trust and respect within the community.

[MR 325]

We're not talking about this thread, the one we're posting on now.

We're talking about THIS thread, which was named after me by George after I starting pestering him for updates, months ago:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=244376

EDIT: Looks like someone re-named it, again.

Fixed that thread title and locked it to avoid further editing.

[Schnitzer318is]

Having purchased from George. Quality of his products is top notch, but as others have said this is not a good situation.

Refunds should be given and development on this product should be abandoned (unless supply and cost situation is worked out to allow stocking the units before sale). Just my thoughts as a previous small business owner with an original product for the mustang community. Time to visit the pawn shop to pay these people back. I've never had to do that, but would not be too proud to do so in order to make it right with my customers.

Just my .02. I would hate to see George banned though. He makes excellent products and genuinely cares about the e30 community. This situation was just mishandled from a business perspective. Again IMO.

[Lodsin]

- Everyone will get exactly what they ordered. I was ready to start shipping a handful of these gauges a while ago, and pulled the plug at the last minuet when I wasn't happy with the finished product. Some other vendors ship half-assed things, but I just couldn't do it. It's not the way I work. There are others that are going to have a different opinion on that. But, that's how I roll.

- Lastly, to all the supporters - thank you. And yes, I hope to be making even more cool things in the future.

gg

I don't know about you..but if everyone had a GG mindset Walmart and China would be out of business.

I've bought only three products from GG, after receiving them I was more than pleased with the quality of the products and was even a little surprised by them. I would think when buying products of great quality you could understand when something just isn't right, and for the producer to hold off on shipping out. If I had a reputation to uphold on either my product or customer service, I'd rather it be on the product. Customer Service is great, it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy like someone cares but its bullshit. When it really comes down to it, its all about the product and George Graves DELIVERS.

I don't know George at all besides from being a customer and reading R3v. But, it is very clear that the man has a great love for e30's and our community. He's been here for almost 10 years making products for a car NO ONE really gives a shit about!

I'm not saying STFU GG IS Teh Beztes. He is just a good guy trying to give new and exciting things to our community.

If he does get banned...well It's been a good run ole' boy, thanks for all you've done for us.

[Earendil]

"When great men fall"...?? WTF are you smoking?

This is bullshit. The dude has been blatantly ignoring his customers, and now says he can't even afford to refund them...

After reading the initial description for this particular product this seems obvious. He needed a minimum number of buyers up front just to fund the product, right? So of course the money is tired up in components. Now, in the last year, or when things started going south on the design, he should have started putting some money away (if possible) so that he could offer refunds when the time came. He didn't do that, and we can choose to believe one of two things:
GG is an unethical bastard with no intention of delivery
GG is misguided and did not foresee the hard times he is now on.

Since he is still around, and still talks like he's trying to make things right, I choose to believe the second one. If he wanted to cut contact and run with the money he never had to post here again. He didn't do that though.

while at the same time saying that the current product is not good enough in his opinion, so he may have to START FROM SCRATCH. How's he going to start from scratch without any money to buy the materials?!?

He hasn't defined what "from scratch" is, and we don't know the component list and price. He could mean that he has to design it from scratch, but using the same primary components.

Ridiculous.

That is indeed the case. But just because the situation is ridiculous and unfortunate, does not make the man evil.

How come he hasn't been banned yet?

Because so far he hasn't shown a pattern of screwing customers, and has only had issues with this one product, yes? And he has ceased to take more orders on this product, yes?
So if you ban him now, I see a few immediate negatives with only one potential positive
Negative: You lose a path of communication.
Negative: GG loses motivation to ever make this right.
Negative: Other costumers lose out on his fine products
Negative: GG loses the chance at redemption

Positive: No one gets screwed by him again? This is hardly a guarantee, and since he hasn't shown a pattern of evil intent, I'm inclined to give him a second chance.

No one will make YOU give him a second chance, but I'd personally like to give him a second chance in the future. In fact, I fully expect that no one directly involved in this ordeal will be his customers again, and no one expects or is asking you to be. But the REST of us have had nothing but pleasant dealings. If this were eBay, he's be sitting at a 99.5% rating. In fact, the more I roll this over, the more I'm going to be pissed if GG is banned. Why? Because at this point GG has shown no intent to harm the community, so if he gets banned it'll be for the sake of a few people's revenge. As soon as GG starts showing a pattern of not shipping products I would expect that he would close up shop on his own, but if he doesn't than he deserves the ban at that point.

[expressfish]

wow, as a full time lurker I find it hard to believe, but I got burned by vlad, and he was around for a long time too. Guess things happen, but I would do everything I could to get their monies back to them. ............as one individual said.....
you've collected over $1500 from members here alone, and can't offer a refund...is it safe to assume you've spent these individuals $ prior to delivering them their product?

shame on you. I think schinitzer318 explained it best.

[george graves]

In progress

[mikeedler]

Positive: No one gets screwed by him again? This is hardly a guarantee, and since he hasn't shown a pattern of evil intent, I'm inclined to give him a second chance.

No one will make YOU give him a second chance, but I'd personally like to give him a second chance in the future. In fact, I fully expect that no one directly involved in this ordeal will be his customers again, and no one expects or is asking you to be. But the REST of us have had nothing but pleasant dealings. If this were eBay, he's be sitting at a 99.5% rating. In fact, the more I roll this over, the more I'm going to be pissed if GG is banned. Why? Because at this point GG has shown no intent to harm the community, so if he gets banned it'll be for the sake of a few people's revenge. As soon as GG starts showing a pattern of not shipping products I would expect that he would close up shop on his own, but if he doesn't than he deserves the ban at that point.

we now know who your sleeping with......... Maybe you should be banned for thinking it is O.K. to take 1500 dollars from forum members and lead them along for a YEAR!

on the other side, NICE to see your working on it GG!

[Earendil]

we now know who your sleeping with......... Maybe you should be banned for thinking it is O.K. to take 1500 dollars from forum members and lead them along for a YEAR!

on the other side, NICE to see your working on it GG!

Like what this thread needs is more attacking
If you can find where I said that taking $1500 in exchange for a product, and delivering neither product nor refund is "okay", then I would suggest you quote THAT, instead of putting words in my mouth.

Let me quote myself
"But just because the situation is ridiculous and unfortunate, does not make the man evil."

I stand by that. Perhaps my world view and experience is a little more broad than yours, and I don't see the world as black and white. All current indications are that he will deliver the product, just not in the expected time frame. Not delivering in the time frame sucks, but from where I'm standing banning him would suck a lot more IMHO.

[pmat]

I hope george will be able to start pumping these out pretty quickly and reliably, because i would love to have one.

[ninjaotter]

Having purchased from George. Quality of his products is top notch, but as others have said this is not a good situation.

Refunds should be given and development on this product should be abandoned (unless supply and cost situation is worked out to allow stocking the units before sale). Just my thoughts as a previous small business owner with an original product for the mustang community. Time to visit the pawn shop to pay these people back. I've never had to do that, but would not be too proud to do so in order to make it right with my customers.

Just my .02. I would hate to see George banned though. He makes excellent products and genuinely cares about the e30 community. This situation was just mishandled from a business perspective. Again IMO.

I agree, except on the abandoning development part. I love GG's products. I have 3 of his G Gauges and they are truly amazing pieces of hardware. This situation sucks, and was totally mishandled from the get go. Banning George probably causes more harm then good though, as this is his primary method of communication with his customers.

I would say that him fulfilling his obligations is the only way he should stay a member here. If, in a few months (and that's being generous), no progress has been made, or George falls off the map again, I would say banning him is in order. Which would be terrible, since I think he makes some truly innovative products. I also think he needs to come up with a way to give some refunds to those who want it, at least partially. George, if you have some old tools you would like to sell, hit me up! I could use a variable DC power supply, an oscilloscope, and a solder reflow oven, if you happen to have one kicking around.

And George, if you need some help with these, I'm happy to pitch in! I'm in Washington as well and can wield a mean soldering iron. Heck, I'm happy to just sit and test LED's all day, I've done it before for college projects, and I can do it again. If nothing else, release your plans and let the community help you! I know myself and others would be happy to pitch in and get these things designed, tested, and built.

[george graves]

Getting closer

[ak-]

GO George GO!

[tonerrrr]

GO George GO!

Get it GG! I think you guys fail to realize the scale of what Vlad did in lying and other shady practices (blaming a shipping company, driving someone's car to a meet etc.) < this is not what GG did so you're comparing apples to oranges.

GG messed up, it's obvious... Yet, he is getting shit done from what it looks like. I know there are other "one man business" forum members who just dropped off the face of the earth when they screwed people over, not GG as of yet.

Dealing with vendors for supplies sucks, not many people know this, I do with the type of work I'm in. GG, I hope you learned a lot from this, people do not care about your problems when you have their money. Good luck buddy!

[M3 Ryan]

I know GG outside the forums and I've been friends with him for longer than most of you have known who he is. He is not being malicious. He is not stealing your money. As someone else said, he has other means of income and responsibilities. It's not unlike my splitters I make. They don't effect my income, I run a repair shop everyday with 3 employees, I have a pregnant wife and 3 step children. An $85 sale is important to me but its on the smallest end of the scale and sometimes things get in the way.
Step out of your boxes and give him a chance. He will come through or give you guys something else in return for your money.
Keep at it George. Good luck!