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Long -Bad experience w/ Boston Chapter Pres. Friedman

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    Long -Bad experience w/ Boston Chapter Pres. Friedman

    Though I'd share this string of email with you all. It started with a rusty brake line, and ended with the President of the Boston Chapter calling me names. Gee, I thought I was a nice guy! Be forwarned - its long. What do you guys think? You have to read them from the bottom up.



    Dear Denis

    Thanks for your reply. My apologies for wasting so much of your time. I can imagine that you have many constraints on your time as the President of the chapter, not to mention a regular life and job! I would have been happy to deal with someone else had you so directed. No need to reply to this email.

    I have no doubt that those at Turnermotorsport know exactly what they are doing and felt they were very clear. However, you were not there (and neither was Dave for that matter) but clearly you have chosen to side with them and chose to label a BMW CCA member "willful" and "disingenuous". I thought my last email was worded very kindly in that I pointed to my novice level as the problem. I have no desire to put myself or others at risk, and certainly had no intention to trick you all.

    I am also in complete agreement that your refund policy is very clear and was from the beginning. My request was simple - can you make an exception given the circumstances and my novice level.

    To me, that doesn't seem to be an inappropriate request at all, but given that I now have the President of my chapter calling me names, I completely and unequivocally withdraw my request and have completely reconsidered my position.

    Thank you for your time.

    Rob Scheiring
    BMW CCA # 297165

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Denis Friedman [mailto:denis@friedman.org]
    Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 11:47 PM
    To: Scheiring, Robert
    Subject: RE: Tech Form - LRP 3/30


    Rob,

    The policies and statements are clear and concise. I spoke with Kevin and Dave at Turner when you first wrote on 3/22 and they were straightforward in their statements about the unsuitability of your car for the event. When I wrote to you I stated "there may have been a misunderstanding" because I felt that was the kindest way to phrase the situation. While I certainly have no reason to believe you were willful in your statement that "the fellow at Turner said it should be fine if I leave it alone.", Kevin was quite certain that he was clear on the matter, and that your car was not safe for the track. I also know that people understand what they hear through the aural filters of hope and expectation. However the statement that the folks at "Turner forgot to give me the form when they had done their work" is disingenuous, as they specifically told me that they informed you that they could not sign off on the car in its then current condition.

    We all have a great responsibility to minimize the hazards of untoward incidents in what must be regarded as an inherently risky situation. It is the obligation of each driver to prepare their car properly, and to do so on a timely basis. The statement in the directions is "CANCELLATION/REFUND POLICY: In order to receive a refund of your entry fee, you must cancel before March 20, 2004 AND we must find another driver to take your spot." Had you canceled by then, there'd be no issue; we could have replaced you from a fairly long wait list, made someone else very happy, and you'd have gotten your money back. However you didn't notify us until 3/25 that you could not render your car safe. The chapter has already lost over $2,000 on this event due to new track fees that were unforeseen at the time the student charge was established, someone on the wait list was denied an opportunity because you did not deal with this matter on a timely basis, I've spent a great deal of time tracing the history of this matter with Turner's people, and now you want your money back.

    Please reconsider your position in the light of all the documentation and let me know that you now see how inappropriate your request is.

    Thank you,

    Denis

    At 09:33 AM 4/1/2004, you wrote:

    Denis - I hope everything went well on Tuesday.

    I hate to bug you on this again, but I feel compelled to share with you my disappointment on the chain of events leading up to my failing tech, and the lack of refund or credit for the event. I'd prefer to discuss this over the phone or in person, but not sure how convenient that would be for you. My work number is below if you need it, or I can call you at a convenient time.

    First, let me say this is the first real event I had (or would have) attended with the Boston Chapter (though I am a member of the Concours committee). I had planned to attend one last year, but due to a layoff was forced to sell my beloved M3. Since then, things have really straightened themselves out, as I was able to get "back in game" with the M6 (I also have an old 325 ic, but its still a project at this point).

    I'm certain to folks like yourself and those at Turnermotorsport, the tech process is straightforward. But from this novice's point of view, it really isn't all that clear. The line between general advice on what would be a good improvement some day and what was a non-starter for a driving school a couple weeks away is not clear. Turner forgot to give me the form when they had done their work, but even when it did arrive in the mail, there was no clear indication of "failure", as there is no spot for them to even sign off on (or not sign off on). So again it wasn't clear to this novice that I was dead in the water (which started our chain of emails).

    Given the circumstances, I ask that you reconsider refund of the driving school fee, or allow it as credit toward a future school. I'm sure $125 is pocket change to most of your members, but to me it isn't. It would also be a good way to see the club's true commitment to supporting and encouraging its newer members.

    Its been a big time learning experience for me, and despite the disappointment, I am vowing to keep at it. I'm hoping you and the Boston Chapter will support me in this effort.

    Yours truly,
    Rob Scheiring
    BMWCCA # 297165
    -----Original Message-----

    From: Scheiring, Robert
    Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:46 AM
    To: 'Denis Friedman'
    Cc: mbarton@lindskog.com
    Subject: RE: Tech Form - LRP 3/30

    Denis - bad news on the brake line. The shop here indicated its a bigger job than they can commit to at this time. For what its worth, they noted there were no leaks and lines had surface rust but did not appear bad.

    So I'm wondering if I should just wait until track day for the final opinion, or given the Turner inspection should I pack in any hope of being on the track right now? Note that if I get failed at the Tech. Inspection, I would still like to stay the day and help out in any way I can.

    Let me know what you think. Sorry for all the trouble.

    Sincerely,

    Rob Scheiring
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Denis Friedman [mailto:denis@friedman.org]
    Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:04 PM
    To: Scheiring, Robert
    Cc: mbarton@lindskog.com
    Subject: RE: Tech Form - LRP 3/30

    Rob,

    Good move!

    Please bring the work order from the shop. Otherwise the tech guys will have to crawl around to inspect the line, and that's not a good thing.

    Thanks,

    Denis

    At 10:09 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:

    Thanks Denis. You're right, they weren't clear about that at all. In any event, I'm taking the car in locally to have some new springs installed (a recommendation from Turner, though it didn't fail the test). I just called and the installer will also put in a new brake line, so I should be all set.

    Should I make any notes or supply proof that the unchecked items on the form are now completed?

    Thanks again. See you next week!

    Rob
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Denis Friedman [mailto:denis@friedman.org]
    Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 9:59 AM
    To: Scheiring, Robert
    Subject: Re: Tech Form - LRP 3/30

    Rob,

    I appreciate the fact that you've taken care of some of the items identified by Turner. However the brake line is a critical component and cannot be assumed safe given the results of Turner's inspection. I spoke with the folks at Turner and believe there may have been a misunderstanding. It is possible they mentioned that the brake line would be okay for a short time in normal street driving, but the high braking requirements, and therefore frequent and high pressure, could well stress the rusted line beyond its present strength.

    I hope you understand that it very much in your best interest to get that line replaced before anything bad happens under even mild use conditions. As is, I believe your car is not sound, safe and suitable for driving at Lime Rock.

    Best regards,

    Denis

    At 09:03 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
    Hi Denis. A quick question on the Pre Event safety inspection form. I had my car inspected at Turnermotorsport a week ago. There were a few things that didn't get checked off the list. Two of them have since been completed (secure battery, tighten driver seat back). The last one is a rusty rear brake line - its a big job (its a one piece line from master cylinder to rear end) and the fellow at Turner said it should be fine if I leave it alone.

    My questions are: 1. Do I need any proof or to indicate on the form where I have since fixed things, and 2. As the rear brake line will remain as is, do I need to indicate anything and/or do I risk being turned back at the Tech inspection?

    Thanks!
    Rob Scheiring
    A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot


    #2
    Wow, now I know where He stands. When was the Tech inspection completed? and why wouldn't TMS do the brake line again? If you are prepping a car for the track you would think they had a failure stamp and then have a block for the sign off.

    Heck we have that in the aviation world and race cars have that in their log books correct?
    https://www.facebook.com/BentOverRacing

    Comment


      #3
      that sucks rob, time to join another club...
      BEERTECH

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by M-technik-3
        Wow, now I know where He stands. When was the Tech inspection completed? and why wouldn't TMS do the brake line again? If you are prepping a car for the track you would think they had a failure stamp and then have a block for the sign off.

        Heck we have that in the aviation world and race cars have that in their log books correct?
        Right, there is no spot for them to sign off (or fail). I had the tech done well in advance (March 8th), and booked the car there for 2 days to get anything done it needed. But they said they didn't have time to fix the line. The paperwork didn't make it to my house until a week later, then I started up the string of emails.

        He has definitely put the F U back in FUN.
        A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Rob
          that sucks rob, time to join another club...
          Agreed. I'm also a member of the Connecticut Valley Chapter, so I think I'll focus my efforts more there. I'll also make sure I get my next inspection done at a place like VSR (Chris Langsten's).
          A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot

          Comment


            #6
            But they said they didn't have time to fix the line
            But they were sure able to bill you for a complete tech inspection right? Seems kinda of odd to me still. Heck the car was on the lift for awhile I wated the activity around for awhile too.

            Learning curve sucks ass there.
            https://www.facebook.com/BentOverRacing

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by M-technik-3
              But they were sure able to bill you for a complete tech inspection right?
              Oh yeah. Bill was $1500. $935 was labor. The only substantial component they replaced was the fuel tank (part cost $276).
              A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot

              Comment


                #8
                sounds like he just got letter of the $2000 that was gonna come out oh his and the VP's pockets, and your $125 was the straw that broke the camel's back. That sucks man.
                My mountains are better than yours.

                Comment


                  #9
                  *sigh*
                  I'm sorry to hear of your frustrations Rob.
                  Just to offer another point of view....
                  We book all of of club racers and track drivers in the fall prior to Spring race/HPDE season. Otherwise the mele of rush tech inspection and "Ohh can you rebuild the motor and add a full cage???" gets out of control. Seeing as you are a novice to BMW CCA "politics" I feel it is the fault of the chapter you were not guided in a better manner as to having service/tech inspection completed well in advance. My father used to be Driving Events Chair for White Mountain CCA. We struggled with tech inspection procedures, helmet ratings, last minute rush/hack jobs, etc. (These problems are ones people would arrive on track day with). From the CCA standpoint, I do understand Dennis' statement about the refund/cancelation.

                  I would like to stress... despite the political bullshit that can come with BMW CCA, there are many members who are truly dedicated and put in an honest effort on behalf of the students/members/etc. Sadly, these people can get glossed over VERY easily when situations like yours arise.

                  Turner is good, Turner can be bad.

                  For future refernce and all other MA people:

                  Vintage Sports Racing
                  Schneller Motorworks
                  3D Autoworks

                  Independent BMW shops with reputable service.


                  Gas tanks are involved jobs, so the labor charge doesnt surprise me that much. If you dont mind me asking, what is Turners hourly rate? As for the fuel line.... That would most likely have needed to be ordered from Mobile Tradition in Germany. Not a part I'd expect local dealers to have instock. However, Mobile Tradition DE is very promt. (~3 days from order to delivery for an e28 M5 center section)

                  Again, sorry to hear of your frustrations. I dont know what Boston's rules are, but do you need to complete an ADSS school before going ontrack?
                  look over www.wmc-bmwcca.org for more info.

                  Chris
                  Below the radar...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I track my car A LOT!

                    Tech inspections are there for this reason. They can not make any exceptions on the tech form. If anything happened to you or to some one else, it would be the chapters fault and lead them open to litigation. Track events might be going away soon, due to the added insurance cost and litigation!! Read the articles in roundel about this crap!

                    What's up with your car? Do you have a hard line that is rusted? if so it should be repaired any way.

                    About the refund, just find some one to take your spot! Over here we have a waiting list so it's usually no trouble to find some one.

                    This happened to me once. I paid $350 for a 2 day weekend, and 12 laps into the first day my engine blew, I was 350mi away from home with no car, and no money!! It happens, that is the price for track time.

                    This is a VERY, VERY expensive hobby! If you can't walk away, or eat, because of it, then it might not be the thing for you at this time. If my engine blew up today, I do not have the cash reserves to fix it!

                    I have yet to get to the track this year and already I have spent about $4500 on prep and parts replacement.

                    Sorry that this happened to you, but it's in every ones best interest that the cars be safe out there.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by UNHCLL
                      We book all of of club racers and track drivers in the fall prior to Spring race/HPDE season. Otherwise the mele of rush tech inspection and "Ohh can you rebuild the motor and add a full cage???" gets out of control.

                      If you dont mind me asking, what is Turners hourly rate?
                      I dont know what Boston's rules are, but do you need to complete an ADSS school before going ontrack?
                      Thanks Chris. Looking back, it would have certainly made more sense to have a car new to the track evaluated months before hand. I left it until the last 3 weeks as that is when the tech inspection requires it. You're right, a little guidance would have been helpful.

                      Their hourly rate is $85.

                      The ADSS is usually mandatory, but the March 30th school was before any of them, so it was waived. They happen every month and don't even require a tech inspection, so that is the next thing I have planned (for the cabrio, as the M6 is now for sale).

                      I'll be going to VSR next time for sure!
                      A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by EVOIIIM3
                        Sorry that this happened to you, but it's in every ones best interest that the cars be safe out there.
                        Its not that I have any desire to put a danger on the track. My point it just that the whole process and communication was unclear to a newbie. I don't see any harm in asking for an exception on that basis (and poliitely at that). I'm just realy surprised that Denis started throwing mud.

                        I can live without the $125 - I've put $18,000 into my 2 bmw's in the last 7 months! I just don't like being treated like a second class citizen.

                        bummer about the motor - you need a whole s14 2.5l rebuild? Ouch.
                        A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do- Walter Gagehot

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well on the bright side....
                          LRP is going to be soaked this w/e. One of our racers will be there.
                          Learning the rain line is totally different from dry line. For a novice, i'd much prefer to start on a dry track than wet.

                          LRP is always a gamble this early in the season.

                          I hope VSR can meet/exceed your expectations in the future! I've been pondering the roll-bar idea you mentioned. Going to talk to my father about that soon.

                          Chris
                          Below the radar...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by rscheiring
                            Originally posted by EVOIIIM3
                            Sorry that this happened to you, but it's in every ones best interest that the cars be safe out there.
                            Its not that I have any desire to put a danger on the track. My point it just that the whole process and communication was unclear to a newbie. I don't see any harm in asking for an exception on that basis (and poliitely at that). I'm just realy surprised that Denis started throwing mud.

                            I can live without the $125 - I've put $18,000 into my 2 bmw's in the last 7 months! I just don't like being treated like a second class citizen.

                            bummer about the motor - you need a whole s14 2.5l rebuild? Ouch.
                            No I don't need a rebuild, that is how my 2.5 came to be. You only pay $125 for track time? That is super cheap!!

                            Over here we have a novice day, and some FAQ to help newbies. The car prep can be murder on a older car, just be happy you don't have to do suspension, brakes, etc...

                            I don't think he was trying to talk down to you, but there was really some lack of leadership on this. Why don't you ask that they get a Novice stewart to help out, or just some FAQ to hand out in the driving school packets?

                            I feel your pain! i have sunk about $11,000 in so far this year and almost none of it was mod money, just fixing and replacing parts. I hate looking at the CC bill!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Sorry Rob. I couldn't read all of those emails, eyes would die. But I got the idea.

                              That's shitty man. If they couldn't fix it they could have given you time to withdraw from the event and get your refund.

                              A local shop here hosted a free Tech Inspection today and checked out anyone's car who was signed up. They were real helpful and nice guys.

                              II can understand what Chris said, shops can be busy and I've been on some waiting lists and know....especially when in season. But if they could not get it done, they could at least have you be able to step out in time......

                              I personally have to get new rear subframe bushings, a battery tie-down, and a guibo. Fun stuff. After spending $$$$ to get other things taken care of.

                              BMWs are an expensive hobby I told my friend today I was probably a fool to think I would own, drive, and track a BMW at 19. Oh well.

                              Comment

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