Weight training thread - Please no irrelevant comments.

[aaron_silva]

I have the genetics of a skinny lanky weeny and made minimal gains throughout high school...

Tell me about it. I was 145 all 4 years of high school (working out regularly for baseball) and as soon as I got out (stop doing every physical activity) I am at 165 (I am 6').

I really want to get back into it. I am lazy.

Aaron

[rwh11385]

Sounds like the program that you were on in high school was more sports-specifc.

Training for size and training for strength are somewhat different. Total work (higher reps) tends to build size while lifting heavy tends to build strength (through increased neuromuscular efficiency). There is some interelation though but pound for pound, a powerlifter is stronger than a bodybuilder.

As you have seen good programs dont have you training heavy all the time. Heavy lifting is more taxing, hard on the joints, and you need some growth stimulation (an 80% efficient large muscle is prob better then a 100% efficient small one).

You'll need to decide how dedicated you want to be. If you want something more simple then you could try something like your HS routine but one day do reps of 10-15, the other do 5's, one light, one heavy. If you want maximum gains then you will have to be dilligent and use a more focused program.

.......
Of course diet is the other side of the coin. Bottom line, if you want to gain muscle size and strength, you need to have a surplus of protein and calories.

People with significant fat reserves (particularly beginners) can lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously but that is not the norm for steroid-free, experienced athletes, with healthy bodyfat levels. You either eat and build muscle (with some fat) or you diet (lose fat while preserving muscle.)

.......

I have to disagree. Red meat is one of the best foods for strength athletes, great source of natural creatine. Should you eat it all the time? No, you shouldnt eat anything all the time. A balanced diet is key.

IMO soy is bunk for male athletes. It is an incomplete protein (edit - my bad, it is 40-50% useable). It is full of isoflavones that have estrogenic properties (eat lots and trade your E30 in for a VW cabrio and start watching chick-flicks). Going Veg for moral reasons is understandable, but not for health reasons? Debatable.

Fat is not the enemy. Total caloric intake and carbohydrate (ie starch and sugars) consumption are more improtant overall for controlling bodyfat levels. Gatorade is soda with some salts in it. Only time it is beneficial is during or after intense exercise. Desk jockeys who think they are making a healthy choice with their 600mL gatorade over soda are quite mistaken.

HTH

THANKS man.

Yes, our weights program was heavily geared towards building strong sport stars. As far as stength vs. size - i think our program mixed it up enough to cover both bases and give a complete workout.

I'm not a huge diet fan at all. I love food, but I don't think I should be eaiting crap either. Greasy pizza and lots of fries hold no real value, the same for sweets. So if I could adjust my eating habits to take in only what I could use is my goal.

I still have some fat stores, but not as much as I first began light weight training. This year I began eating a lot - at lunch like grab a second chicken sandwich instead of just one. I'd know if I was going to work out, I'd need the fuel to grow. I'm glad to hear I don't have to cut red meat out entirely. It just seems to be a great building block of a healthy person. I should however cut back, and increase my chicken and pork intake. And I've never been able to stand tofo or soy. Another thing is I dig peanut butter and would like to include more of it to increase my protien intake. Some health bars are nothing but grains and peanut butter......

I generally need a higher consumption of water during the day, and Gatorade helps that. And if I'm going to be working and sweating, I'll need to repleanish my body. Therefore, Gatorade is helpful and I feel a lot more recovered an hour later when I do drink some. In addition, CO2 is the devil. I see Gatorade as a healthy alterative to carbonated drinks and a more inviting drink than plain water.

The real first test will be this summer. It is when I can decide to relax or go workout. Last summer I did go to the gym every other day and worked until I was completely fatigued......up until the point where I got a job that upset my schedule. Also, summer offers a change in diet as instead of getting lunch at school, I eat what is at home - either mostly junk or nothing.

[318driver]

Ive been trying to come out with a new workout for myself recently too. I am not happy with what ive been doing and am looking for a change. I will be going to the physical trainer at my gym and ask him what exercises i should be doing in order to get bigger. My main problem is shoulders. Im Built decently except for my shoulders and back. And that is what i do the most. The hardest thing for me right now is sticking to the schedual of atleast 5 times a week.

I Have a good new topic, but dont feel its nesessary to start a new topic for it alltogether. Im taking Myoplex deluxe right now and i am finishing it up(along with eating good). Once i finish my myoplex i want to get a new protien and get back on creatine.
what creatine products and methods do you guys use?
What protiens do you like?
Anything else i should look into?

sry to highjack your thread.

[MattE30]

I, on the other hand, didnt really care about looking cool, just wanted to be healthy and strong for soccer. Ate like a damn pig, worked out regularly, and gained 20 pounds my first year.

I've gotten back into weight lifting after taking a break for several months. I too don't care about looking like a football player, I just want to stay in shape for baseball and soccer. The only supplement I do take is Prolab N-Large. It's a weight gainer with lots of whey protein and other amino acids. I gained around 7 pounds with it in a month. Yes it isn't creatine gains, but I don't want to put that crap in my body. Something about gaining all that weight and strength in a matter of weeks scares me :?

[318driver]

Crap??
Im dont know where your coming from or the stories that you have heard(because most people think the Stories are true)

But get some facts on it before you call it crap. I put alot of research before i started taking creatine, and that needs to be done for any kind of supplement before you take it.

[rwh11385]

Crap??
Im dont know where your coming from or the stories that you have heard(because most people think the Stories are true)

But get some facts on it before you call it crap. I put alot of research before i started taking creatine, and that needs to be done for any kind of supplement before you take it.

Alright, let's get things straight. Those "stories" are lies and research has shown no short term effects of creatine.

However, my coach was unsure about using it because long term results are not known yet! But it did help my football players to get really strong.

This was on R3V i think. The problem with Creatine is it gets you big, but not cut. If you did situps or whatnot, you'd have a big strong gut instead of a six pack. Therefore, I think natural is the way to go. I may not have great form yet, but the muscles I do have have definition, not just blobs of muscle tissue like the big football buddies.

Depending how lifting goes, I might start up protien supplements, but I'm not really interested in getting THAT big. I just want nice arms and chest so that I feel better about myself, and chicks do too. It's important to have both cut-ness and size. Ideally I'd have big arms but be chiselled. I don't want to lose that with Creatine.

[MattE30]

From what I have read, nobody knows the long term effects of creatine on the body, so I will not take it until I know exactly what might happen. For example, it can cause stomache cramps and kidney problems short term (taking plenty of water should prevent this) . Stuff like this everyone should know before taking, and if the long term info isn't there...

[KenC]

The problem with Creatine is it gets you big, but not cut. If you did situps or whatnot, you'd have a big strong gut instead of a six pack.

I beg to differ. I was on creatine for over 4 months, and I worked out six days per week (more than I should have, I know), and I was VERY cut. I did a lot of ab work and I had a very chiseled six-pack. Creatine will make you retain about 5lbs of water or so (but our bodies are already more than 50% water so it's not a big deal).
If you take creatine and don't work out, then you'll most certainly just get large. However, if you have a good workout routine, you'll gain noticable definition.

*I think people are also forgetting that creatine is natural in the body, the supplements that you take are just that... a supplement to the already natural supply.

[318driver]

i have read a few sites, that have been doing creatine testing since the 80s. And they have so far found no short term effects. I think that taking all the precautions are the best thing to do if taking creatine. But i understand where you are comeing from. I felt the same way untill i got fed up with my small size and i decided to take creatine and gained 15-20lbs in one summer. Im off it now and am trying to maintain a healty eating style, but protein will always be part of my working out routine.

[Nitrox]

what creatine products and methods do you guys use?
What protiens do you like?
Anything else i should look into?

Ok here's my IMO on supplements. They are supplments. Simple huh?

Real food is always best. Supplements are beneficial for situations where you do not have the resources to eat 5 or 6 healthy meals per day. That said here's what I think is worthwhile spending money on if your diet isnt spot on:

Creatine: Look for a plain monohydrate product. Mix with gatorade or grape juice if you want additional uptake through insulin stimulation otherwise use water or protein shake. Most fancy (read expensive) creatine products include some form of carb for insulin, flavoring, or other high priced ingredient that has little proven effects (glutamine, hmb, etc.). If you eat a lot of red meat then you may not notice much effect from creatine.

Protein: If you can't meet a 1-1.5 gram protein/lb bodyweight target with whole foods then a whey-isolate, cassein, or egg protein (or blend) can help you make up the difference. Leave the soy for women.

Multi vitamin: This is pretty obvious. One thing look for a low-iron version, often senior's versions (like Centrum Silver) offer this. Men dont really need iron supplementation and too much can become toxic.

Flax or Udo's oil: Fat gets a bad wrap cause people in NA eat too much saturated and trans fat. This screws your cholesterol levels. If you can't eat fish (the kind that lives in water) several times per week then Flax oil or Udo's choice oil has the poly unsaturates and omega-3 fatty acids that can put cholesterol back in balance. Remember its not really how much fat you eat it is in what ratios.

That is about all that I think are worth spending money on. Most other stuff is over-hyped, under-studied, over-priced fluff aimed at draining your wallet. If you have spare cash and want to experiment go ahead but nothing short of anabolic steroids are going to turn you into Arnold or Triple-H.

For you guys who are pressed for time in the mornings try this: 1-2 cups water or milk, handful of fruit (frozen strawberries from Costco are great), 1-2 scoops protein powder, 1 tbsp flax oil, 1 tbsp olive oil. throw in a blender and you're done. This gives you a low carb meal with about 400-500 calories, 20-30g protein, and a good fat profile. All in about a minute.

[rwh11385]

The problem with Creatine is it gets you big, but not cut. If you did situps or whatnot, you'd have a big strong gut instead of a six pack.

I beg to differ. I was on creatine for over 4 months, and I worked out six days per week (more than I should have, I know), and I was VERY cut. I did a lot of ab work and I had a very chiseled six-pack. Creatine will make you retain about 5lbs of water or so (but our bodies are already more than 50% water so it's not a big deal).
If you take creatine and don't work out, then you'll most certainly just get large. However, if you have a good workout routine, you'll gain noticable definition.

*I think people are also forgetting that creatine is natural in the body, the supplements that you take are just that... a supplement to the already natural supply.

I heard it from a former E3S member that it got you big, but not cut, on the old weight lifting thread.

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/musclepulls.html some stories

I think that calling it natural doesn't make it free to abuse. It could still mess up body chemisty, ruin kidneys, or etc. etc. even if it is natural.

[KenC]

The problem with Creatine is it gets you big, but not cut. If you did situps or whatnot, you'd have a big strong gut instead of a six pack.

I beg to differ. I was on creatine for over 4 months, and I worked out six days per week (more than I should have, I know), and I was VERY cut. I did a lot of ab work and I had a very chiseled six-pack. Creatine will make you retain about 5lbs of water or so (but our bodies are already more than 50% water so it's not a big deal).
If you take creatine and don't work out, then you'll most certainly just get large. However, if you have a good workout routine, you'll gain noticable definition.

*I think people are also forgetting that creatine is natural in the body, the supplements that you take are just that... a supplement to the already natural supply.

I heard it from a former E3S member that it got you big, but not cut, on the old weight lifting thread.

http://www.nutritionalsupplements.com/musclepulls.html some stories

I think that calling it natural doesn't make it free to abuse. It could still mess up body chemisty, ruin kidneys, or etc. etc. even if it is natural.

All I can give is my personal experience with it. I was quite pleased. But you're 100% correct about the kidney damage; if you take creatine, make sure to drink a lot of water when you're lifting and such. It tended not to be a problem for me as I found that I was much thirstier than I usually was, especially when working out.

[Charlie]

The problem with Creatine is it gets you big, but not cut. If you did situps or whatnot, you'd have a big strong gut instead of a six pack.

I beg to differ. I was on creatine for over 4 months, and I worked out six days per week (more than I should have, I know), and I was VERY cut. I did a lot of ab work and I had a very chiseled six-pack. Creatine will make you retain about 5lbs of water or so (but our bodies are already more than 50% water so it's not a big deal).
If you take creatine and don't work out, then you'll most certainly just get large. However, if you have a good workout routine, you'll gain noticable definition.

*I think people are also forgetting that creatine is natural in the body, the supplements that you take are just that... a supplement to the already natural supply.

If you're "cut" while loading creatine, then I would be seriously worried. A typical 5 gram dose sucks up a lot of water, and is gonna make you retain quite a bit, if you're looking "cut", then you're going to be really dehydrated.

As "nitrox" said, you'll get big on creatine, but not a "Cut" look, you can acheive that with a cutting cycle afterward. The only way you'd get a HHH/Lesnar type look in short time would be with anabolic stuff/HGH/etc.

-Charlie

[rwh11385]

It's just scary stuff Ken. I'm not willing to take the risk really. I'm making fine progress as it is, and don't really need to up the ante. Besides i really do eat a lot of red meat, so I probably get a good amount of creatine already.

Charlie, I'm not cut now, nor flabby, just in decent shape. I think that getting much bigger would just make me look fat. What besides red meat and protien will naturally help me build defined muscles? (new suggestions, I've read what people already said) I'll try that morning milk, strawberry thing definately, but when this summer my diet will be self-reliant, so help me improve it.

from way back there:

IMO soy is bunk for male athletes. It is an incomplete protein (edit - my bad, it is 40-50% useable). It is full of isoflavones that have estrogenic properties (eat lots and trade your E30 in for a VW cabrio and start watching chick-flicks). Going Veg for moral reasons is understandable, but not for health reasons? Debatable.

Anyone see the South Park when Stan? turned into a giant vagina because he stopped eating meat. :D

[KenC]

Besides i really do eat a lot of red meat, so I probably get a good amount of creatine already.

Then I wouldn't bother with the supplements then; red meat has the highest concentration of natural creatine.