Old Blue 2002 (1974 BMW 2002 Content)

[deutschman]

Ireland Engineering right around $220

[deutschman]

Got the rest of the head cleaned up today. Nice and shiny, and ready for the machine shop.
Found this on the head?... Did the head get work done in 2002...

The head with the 272 cam stuck in it.
272 cam stuck in it.

[frankenbeemer]

This is looking good. Thanks for the inspiration.

[deutschman]

^
thanks! It is nice to know thy some other people like my car other then my self.

I'm getting back from my week long event. Working 15 hour days in a fridgerated butchers room. 15 hours at 16 an hours is nice! Double time baby!

[deutschman]

I dropped my head off at Morgan's Machine and Marine in the East Bay today. A few hours later I got a disappointing phone call from Time, the machinist, saying that the valves I received were "what you expect from over seas."
I got the valves from Ireland Engineering. I did not get them because they were cheaper then others, which they are, but because I bought my cam and springs from them and thought there valves looked nice as well.
It is not the first time I have been disappointed with their products. The sway bar bushings for the rear of my car I received from them were WAY to big, and they paint on the sway bars is removable with a finger nail.
Sad, because some of their stuff is really good, and they make some really cool stuff.
Maybe they try and cut corners for cost. It will ketch up with them in long run. Better to sell better parts and charge a few more dollars to cover the difference.
I sent them this.

Hi

I just ordered a set of stainless valves from you guys for my m20. I dropped my head off at my machine shop, Morgan's Machine and Marine in Walnut Creek, and got a disappointing phone call from the machinist Tim.
He told me that the valves are low quality sub pare parts, and in his words "look like the kind of stuff you get from over seas." Needless to say I was disappointed.
I have ordered a lot of parts for my e30, and 2002 from you guys and am almost always very happy with them. How ever I have received a few parts that did not fit properly or showed signs of fatigue fast then normal. I have also read complaints about some of your products on forums such as the 2002 Faq, and R3VLimitted.
I know that balancing competitive prices, good parts, and profit is hard. I am no business man, nor am I an expert in automotive parts, but I would think people would not mind buying parts that cost them a few more dollars if they knew they were of the highest quality.
When everything boils down I think you guys do a great job. I just wish that some of your stuff I receive was of a bit higher quality.

Thank you for your time and services!

Jeremy Nugent

I also had to order some new valve guides seeing as the ones in the head are a bit loose. An email has already been sent to Blunt.
I will update later with pictures of the head, and a few other things.

[Justin B]

Yeah, IE just seems to distribute a lot of chinese crap. I read about their +1 mm valves breaking off the stem somewhere when I was researching my m20 stroker build parts. Either go with oem, or if it really needs aftermarket valves I would use VAC.

[deutschman]

Yep! ^

I just talked to my machinist a second time and he says spending this amount of money on head work is retarded if I am going to put these valves in my car. What a pain in the ass! I thought that if I had any problems at this stage it would have been with the work I did on the head, not with the parts I bought for it.
I have to say that this is making me think twice before ever buying anything from Ireland again.
Looks like I will be sending these valves back to Ireland and getting different ones all together.

[LJ851]

I wouldnt write ireland off, just dont assume they always have the same standards as you when it comes to aftermarket parts. If they wont tell you who makes the parts or what country they come from you can move on and look elsewhere. Sorry to hear about your valves, they are deff not a place for substandard parts in my book.

[deutschman]

Well I will just have to call and ask a lot of questions. Maybe it is lazy, but when I drop hundreds of dollars on parts, I assume that the vender is not going to sell me sub standard parts. Especially some one with the reputation Ireland has.

[deutschman]

So I talked to my machinist today, and he said that the valve margins were off which messes with the valve tip height and leads to premature ware of other valve train parts. He also told me that he was disappointed with the fact that the valves were not coated/skinned.
I talked to two gentleman at Ireland about the valves. The first one was nicer than the second, the second being grumpy and defensive when all I was trying to do was figure out what they thought about what was going on with the valves. Weird.
I ordered valves and guides from Blunt. If Tim does not like these he is just being to picky.

[mr2peak]

Sounds like you've found a good machinist. Hurrah for other things going right!

[frankenbeemer]

A few questions, if you don't mind.

I know what margin is but what does "skinned mean"? Is it just another word for coating?

Besides the poor margins and lack of coating, were there any other features that indicated these valves were not first quality?

What valves did you order from blunt? Are they OEM or something else?

I hope IE will take care of this with no hassle, I like their stuff in general, and I suspect they have some good stuff that you can't get from blunt. Of course, I would check with blunt first on anything, it seems people never have a problem with his parts or service, plus free CnB, where else can you get that!?. Kudo's to your machinist, he's the one I would go to if I wasn't on the wrong coast.

[deutschman]

I got my new valves from Blunt today. Fast as always!
They are made by Inter Valves (Switzerland).
Inter Valves

Ireland Valves

By "skinned" he meant coated. He said that there were signs of stress on the surface of the metal created by the way they were machined.
The valves I ordered from Blunt are OE.
This may be a case of a overly picky machinist, but I trust this guy. He has been working on all kinds of motors his whole life (Asian, Euro, and Domestic), and he has a very good reputation in the Bay Area.
I to was surprised when he told me the valves were not the best. I usually love my Ireland parts and they make things for my '02 that you just can not get from anyone ells.
If the valves really are bad it might not even be Ireland's fault. They get a lot of these valves made, and I am sure that some times a bad set slips threw.
As fare as the skin/coating goes, that might just be preference thing.
I don't know. The two sets of valves look almost the same to me. The set from blunt does not have the heat treatment on the smaller valves.
I might still decide to use Ireland's valves after I compare the two at the shop tomorrow.
The problem then is that I paid for two sets of valves, and I am only using one.
I guess i could sell a set, if I can not return one or the other.
Ireland has been very helpful so fare and said there is no problem what so ever with me sending the valves back.

[deutschman]

Just got back from the Machine shop after hearing what Tim had to say and show me about the Ireland valves. He was not being overly picky. Let me start off by saying if I had not been in a rush to get to the shop, and had taken each valve out and looked at it, I would have been able to see some of these imperfections with my naked eye no - measuring needed. The intake valves had some really bad metal imperfections because of the way they were machined/produced. The exhaust valves had huge differences in the valve margin, to the point of being able to see it with the naked eye. Non of the valves had a protective coating/skinning (blue chrome) on the stem. Now Tim said they were also made of weaker steel then the valves I got from Blunt, but I can not confirm that my self.

Now for some pictures.

Intake:

New intake valve. Heat treated smooth surface.

Ireland intake valve. Bad imperfections in the metal!


New

Ireland



Exhaust:

New

Ireland


Valve margin on the exhaust valves:

Naked eye

Measuring



A good valve should also have a protective smooth metal coating on the stem. The new valves I got from Blunt came with a Blue Chrome coating on the stem. It is a bit hard to see in the pictures, but if you take the valve and look up close you can see where the Blue Chrome starts and stops.

The Ireland valve does not have this.


Basically these valves will work... but if you want to run your motor for another 100,000 then these are not the valves to go with. If you are spending hundreds of dollars on head work and getting a 3 angle valve job, these are not the valves to go with.
Sadly this is a case of trying to save money buy getting valves made in Asia (China) for a few bucks each, and then selling them for the same price as I got my Blunt valves for.
The Ireland valves were $259.20 with out the shipping. I got the nice valves from Blunt (Steve) for $234.84 with free over night shipping.
I am sorry to call Ireland out like this, but these really are pore valves, and maybe they will start selling a better valve some time soon. :(

[LJ851]

Wow , those are not pretty. The intakes look like they are only machined on the stem and seat area. You did the right thing, and your machinist is not out of line in my book. Not OE quality at all.