Health care

[CorvallisBMW]

If you can't afford healthcare then you can't afford to live. As you can see I'm no bleeding heart.

Jesus. You don't have any conscious at all, do you?

'I'm sorry Ms. hard Working Single Mother of 3, you don't have enough income from your minimum wage job to pay $10K a year in healthcare costs you you deserve to die.' - Restoman

Someone has obviously never gone without healthcare in their lives :loco:

[Schnitzer318is]

Someone has obviously never gone without healthcare in their lives :loco:

^Exactly...


I'm all for healthcare reform, we'll have to wait and see how it performs. Every party in power gets its chance... if it's fucked up Obama and every other Dem will be voted out who voted for this.

The insurance companies are corrupt and something needs to be done about it... not sure if this is it, but time will tell.

[mrsleeve]

Corvallis

Hey thats why the S-Chip program passed. So that those that are making shit can support govt care for children of some one who is makeing 150k a year or more with their tax dollars and sin tax dollars. S-chip took off all income restrictions for free govt health care for kids.

Oh and as it sits now she falls under the medicaid programs, SO your argument is moot.

As to go with out heath care, I have and it was not a good time. I will halk, scrounge, sell, do what ever I have to, to make that premium payment when I am off for too long and run outta escrow hours.

[asubimmer]

Jesus. You don't have any conscious at all, do you?

'I'm sorry Ms. hard Working Single Mother of 3, you don't have enough income from your minimum wage job to pay $10K a year in healthcare costs you you deserve to die.' - Restoman

Someone has obviously never gone without healthcare in their lives :loco:

ok so you want to force ME to pay for her since she has 3 kids and no father? There are have and have nots, natural selection ;) You don't get anywhere in life sitting on your ass. You have to go out there and make something of yourself. And socialistic policies like this heathcare program only hurt people that are doing something with their life.

[stegosaurus]

i'm starting a list of names of those of you who are excessively vocally against this stuff.

I belong on this list.

[Hallen]

i'm in two minds about it.. on the one hand, i do believe that as the most advanced democracy in the world, everyone should have access to affordable healthcare

But affordable health care is NOT what this bill is about. This bill is about the government controlling health INSURANCE. That is a very different thing than controlling health care costs.

and that the health care insurance industry needs to be regulated to ensure that as they won't do that out of their own accord. On the other, i am against increasing taxes and penalties to pay for it.

The health care is heavily regulated already. That's where a lot of the costs come from. Some of the regulations are good in that it greatly reduces the ability of charlatans and snake oil salesmen from entering the market, but mostly they just unnecessarily raise costs without raising the level of care.

And again, you are referring to health care costs when this bill addresses health insurance. In fact, what it does is tax the snot out of people who don't have health insurance. Which is a wicked weird way of doing things. Also, this bill relies heavily on those fines to fund itself. So if everybody complies, then the government option will fail because it doesn't have funding. What kind of sense does that make?

My feeling is that the timing is off on this.

More than that. The timing will never be right for this. It is a poorly crafted bill that has hugely negative economic, freedom, and bad health issues associated with it.

i'm not endorsing the republican view of lets just sit on our asses and do nothing but yell at the other side either.

They have their own bills drafted but they can't make it to the floor because they don't control any of the committees. For every Democrat bill proposed, there have been an equal number of Republican bills proposed. They say that the Republicans have not offered any alternatives. That's simply not true. The Democrats blow them off because those Republican bills don't include public options and don't force huge and unworkable regulation down the throats of insurance providers and employers.

Jesus. You don't have any conscious at all, do you?

'I'm sorry Ms. hard Working Single Mother of 3, you don't have enough income from your minimum wage job to pay $10K a year in healthcare costs you you deserve to die.' - Restoman

Someone has obviously never gone without healthcare in their lives :loco:

While pity and a desire to help in a reasonable way may exist in all of us, we would differ on the "how" part. First, I guarantee that woman and her kids already have access to health care. And I bet they can all get it for free. There are already massive government programs for that kind of thing. What she doesn't have is health insurance. It is understandable since all insurance plans are required by the government to cover massive amounts of stuff that this woman doesn't need so are very expensive.

The second point here is that it is her responsibility. She had three kids and has no husband. Did she really not learn her lesson after the first one? Or, did her husband die? What kind of good father and husband has no life insurance for that contingency? It comes down to a personal responsibility issue. If she was stupid enough to have three kids with no way of supporting them, then I have a lot of sympathy for the kids, but none for her. I am not about to willingly pay for her mistakes. Having the government force me to pay for her mistakes is even more evil. It is nothing more than theft.

There are ways of dealing with that kind of thing that doesn't directly involve the government and allows those of us who want to help to do so. You'll get a lot more people helping if the government wasn't already bleeding us dry.

[rwh11385]

The second point here is that it is her responsibility. She had three kids and has no husband. Did she really not learn her lesson after the first one? Or, did her husband die? What kind of good father and husband has no life insurance for that contingency? It comes down to a personal responsibility issue. If she was stupid enough to have three kids with no way of supporting them, then I have a lot of sympathy for the kids, but none for her. I am not about to willingly pay for her mistakes. Having the government force me to pay for her mistakes is even more evil. It is nothing more than theft.

There are ways of dealing with that kind of thing that doesn't directly involve the government and allows those of us who want to help to do so. You'll get a lot more people helping if the government wasn't already bleeding us dry.

Dude, it's 2009 under the Obama regime... personal responsibility is dead. The plebs have voted themselves more bread and circuses.

[87e30]

I belong on this list.

Me too. :)

I'm 19, I'm in school, so that I can go on to support MYSELF when I'm older.

Now lets just say my entire life outlook falls apart, and I somehow have two children, am single, and can't afford health insurance.

Now a majority of the people that I graduated with are doing very well and can easily support themselves and family.

Is it my right to walk around to all of them and TAKE away some of what they have so that I can support myself?

I think not. Good for them, shame on me.

[Fast Frankie]

I don't like the sounds of it.

As an individual, I am forced to buy govt health care or I pay a fine. Is that correct? And we don't know how much the health care plans cost yet, but they are believed to be more than the free market plans available now? Am I reading this correctly?

And the govt wants to fine businesses that don't provide health care; why are we making it harder to competitive?

[joshh]

This bill is an effort to pass ANYTHING so Obama can say he passed "healthcare reform".

Look I'm not willing to support the stupid bitch down the road who's on Welfare and chooses to have 5 kids and can't keep a man to support her. And i shouldn't have to pay for her abortions or her healthcare.

This is an attempt to spread the wealth. Your healthcare is regulated by how much money you make. So if you're a perfectly heathly young adult and you make $150,000 a year, you get fucked.

This isn't reform.

And where the fuck is C-SPAN!! Obama is a fucking liar period.

[TexasTerp]

What's even more ridiculous is that the cost of the government health insurance plan (not health care - for you liberals) will actually be significantly higher than a private company premium, at least for those who fall into the category of "can afford it but don't have it" which is determined by PRE-TAX income levels.

It is not my responsibility to pay for the mistakes and poor life choices of others, I'm self employed as an opera singer making less than 20k a year in my profession. I am a self taught web designer and have done everything I possibly can to pay my rent, bills, and $300/month health insurance. At one point I even turned off my electricity for 2 months during the summer in New Orleans so I could save money to buy a new computer so I can bring my web design work with me. I did what was necessary, I took care of my responsibility and made the necessary sacrifices. The fact of the matter is that the people who want free health insurance from the government are the same people who refuse to make the necessary sacrifices because it's people like you damn liberals who tell them it's not their fault. You people always tout Darwinism and Evolution when it comes to Religion, how about applying that theory to the rest of life. So to you I say fuck off, and if you wanna question my heart, I want to know what have you done lately besides sit on your ass and complain about the "vast right wing conspiracy"? What have you actually DONE? When was the last time you volunteered? When was the last time you worked in a soup kitchen or free clinic? When was the last time you taught a class on basic computer skills at a church/school so people can learn. If you want to help people afford insurance, teach them better skills for better jobs.

[kishg]

http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...0health%20care



That should send up warning bells... but no, idiots think that's a positive thing. How messed up are both of those programs?

social security is in danger of going bankrupt unless something is done to change it but at the same time it did radically change the outlook of most people's lives. just ask your grandma. while i regret the fact that what i pay today goes to fund old people who didn't pay nearly that much into the system ( i don't think your grandma should be driving a caddy on my dime), it's not really a failure. i was in favor of the bush proposal to create social security accounts and let people invest that money.

as for medicare, what makes you think it's a failure? last statistics on it I saw are that it's operating overhead is somewhere around 3%.. making it far more efficient than any private healthcare insurance in the US.

[kishg]

What's even more ridiculous is that the cost of the government health insurance plan (not health care - for you liberals) will actually be significantly higher than a private company premium, at least for those who fall into the category of "can afford it but don't have it" which is determined by PRE-TAX income levels.

do you have numbers to back that up?

unlike most of you, i'm not a rabid one or the other, i don't hate on something just because obama or bush or whoever came up with it. bush had some good ideas like the immigration reform bill and the social security proposal. unfortunately, he burnt up so much political capital he became a lame duck. there's two sides to every story and i'll make my decisions based on the facts and figures not hyperbole or political rhetoric. i am a capitalist that believes in being "long term greedy". short term greed is what got us to where we are now, it's not sustainable as a society. like i said in my initial post, obama has his priorities messed up, he should end the wars, reduce that spending, reduce the deficit, bring us through the recovery and then we can talk about healthcare reform and immigration reform.

[TexasTerp]

do you have numbers to back that up?

unlike most of you, i'm not a rabid one or the other, i don't hate on something just because obama or bush or whoever came up with it. bush had some good ideas like the immigration reform bill and the social security proposal. unfortunately, he burnt up so much political capital he became a lame duck. there's two sides to every story and i'll make my decisions based on the facts and figures not hyperbole or political rhetoric. i am a capitalist that believes in being "long term greedy". short term greed is what got us to where we are now, it's not sustainable as a society. like i said in my initial post, obama has his priorities messed up, he should end the wars, reduce that spending, reduce the deficit, bring us through the recovery and then we can talk about healthcare reform and immigration reform.

My rant was over the top, and although you and I tend to disagree on the details of things, our interjections we are much in the same. Just to make this clear to everyone, I'm not against this bill because it's a Democrat/Pelosi/Obama bill, I'm against it because it is bad policy, and I've read all of the bills with the exception that I'm starting on the one that just passed (since they decided not to release it until it passed.....). There are plenty of Bush proposals I was highly against. This is what I have read from the Wall Street Journal concerning the CBO projections for the Public Policy costs, I have the actual CBO release indexed somewhere but I'll have to search for it (the following is also posted on the first page of the thread):

An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.


As is stands for me right now, I pay $3600 a year with a $15 co-pay, $500 deductible, prescription and dental coverage through Aetna. My last doctor visit was to my ENT in which I was scoped and had an MRI, no upfront payment and the entire visit cost me $7 with $10 in Antibiotics and muscle relaxers.

[kishg]

As is stands for me right now, I pay $3600 a year with a $15 co-pay, $500 deductible, prescription and dental coverage through Aetna. My last doctor visit was to my ENT in which I was scoped and had an MRI, no upfront payment and the entire visit cost me $7 with $10 in Antibiotics and muscle relaxers.

But that won't change under this bill. Also, those numbers are assuming they are footing the entire bill with no employer contribution correct?