Opinion/Help: Ebay and Paypal Issues

[whakiewes]

Normally I am pretty solid at doing things myself but I am slightly baffled on my current situation. I have had issues with Paypal before, and everytime something happens it makes me want to use it less. Unfortunately if you sell anything over the internet everyone wants to use Paypal so either you accept the hassle or you don't sell anything.

I am going to be short on the details as best I can - I list a pair of RUF Porsche wheels I had on Ebay, 19" from a 2006 997. First auction ends with a BIN that flakes and doesn't pay, still have not been refunded from Ebay...but not a big deal, I will bite the $68 final value fee. Relist them three weeks ago, lower the price $500 with no reserve, and don't have a buy it now. Guy bids, wins at my opening bid. In my expensive auctions I always require the buyer to pay the Paypal fees if they choose to use that method, for a couple of reasons. Paypal only protects up to $1000, myself and the buyer. Second the cost of using Paypal is expensive on a $3000 payment. So I email the buyer asking how he wishes to pay exclaiming the disclaimer in my auction. He responds back furious saying no one ever does that and he won't either. I explained my side and offer to meet him in the middle, split the fees. He agrees the next day and I ship the wheels as soon as I get a cleared payment...literally the same day. Guy gets the wheels, emails me stating the wheels are in better shape then he thought, and was really glad he got a good deal (which he did).

Sunday I get an email from him saying he wants a full refund of what he paid. He explained that I listed the wheels as being able to fit narrow body cars, but his cabriolet has special bracing in the back and they won't fit. I email him back with a link to the RUF website showing they do fit narrow body cars and there is an issue with his car. I further search the forums to find many cabrio guys running 11" wide rears with no issues. Yesterday he decided to file a claim with Paypal and leave me negative feedback on Ebay. I call Paypal to try to sort through this as quickly as possible in which the middle eastern guy that knows 3 words tells me to just post in the resolution page and a specialist will take care of it. I reply back on the Paypal claim saying that I was correct, they fit narrow bodies and offer to refund him the total minus the rest of the Paypal fees, Ebay fee's, and he is responsible for shipping them back to me. I was a tad bit rude stating that the buyer had obviously not read through my return procedure (which his issue doesn't fall under) and that he must not have read the part regarding 'please verify for models other than 997S'.

Responds back today saying I am out of my mind to not refund him, that I was wrong, and he won't back down until he gets his full $3000. On the advice of my good friend who is an attorney I decide to try to make amends as a pissing match won't go anywhere. I tell him I am willing to refund him the total minus the rest of the paypal fees and half of the final value fee, OR I will send him $6.30 to relist the wheels and $63.00 for the final value fee so he is not out any money and I am only out $69.30. He is refusing to take either...

So opinions on whether I am right or wrong, is he allowed a full refund, do I use Paypal ever again, etc? The thing is, Paypal offers no one protection, buyer or seller. I feel that I am right because they do fit narrow bodies, and there ARE cabrio's running 11" wide rears. He claims he can only fit 10's, 11's won't fit. I am not a company and I don't feel I have to offer refunds. The item was listed 'as-is', but he is claiming I am wrong since they don't fit ALL narrow bodies.

Wes

[browntown]

Hmm. First I think having a buyer pay ebay fees is wrong. Work it into your starting price. I wouldn't bid on something that I have to pay fees for. Plus I think I've read somewhere that the practice is frowned upon.

As for the buyer requesting a refund. B/S. It's the buyers responsibility to make sure it's the right product for them. Maybe you made a claim in the narrow body business that was to general, maybe he assumed too much. Caveat emptor. I think he'd probably be easier about it in the vast majority of auctions under 1000$. He knows he made a boo-boo, and doesn't want to accept he's out 3k. If he's going to be a prick about it, f-him. I wouldn't give a refund in that situation.

[whakiewes]

Normally I don't make buyers pay the Paypal fees but when an item is fairly expensive it makes it hard to work it into the price right. When you buy a car at an auction, the buyer is responsible for all fee's associated with selling, I have yet to understand why Ebay isn't that way. I even added to the description to make sure any possible bidders would know that I would be willing to wait on a check or whatever if they chose not to use Paypal.

The part that I am pissed of about is that now my Paypal is locked up and I am having to use friends for other things I sold. I may have been too general, but I thought it was common practice to know what your buying. It may be a thing they did in 2001, and stopped in 2002 so in that range you only can have specific wheels. How am I supposed to know that?

Wes

[PiercedE30]

It is totally up to the buyer to make sure that that whatever they buy is going to work for their application. I wouldn't go and buy a brake rotor for a E60 and try and put it on my E30 and then get pissed when it didn't fit my car. The guy is obviously a moron.

[Jscotty]

As for your specific situation, you do not owe the buyer anything. You didn't sell him an inferior product nor did you misrepresent what you were selling. This is one of those circumstances where its "buyer beware" and if he really wanted a perfect situation he should have gone to the dealer to get those wheels. Had he bought them on the street from anyone else he would be stuck with them. And now that he has left you negative feedback, all bets are off. He didn't even give you the opportunity to resolve the situation so at this point if he wants anything from you, tell him that he will just have to sue you.. in fact tell him that I SAID he will have to take you to court.

And believe me- I feel bad that the guy made a foolish $3000 purchase but if the wheels are a good deal at that price, he should be able to sell them and recoup most of his costs. Don't even waste any more of your time and effort trying to explain why the wheels don't fit on this guy's car. Save it for court if he sues you.


Now to make sure this never happens again, do what I do:

First of all, I do not make any claims as to what a particular item can do or what can be done with it. I simply advertise the item "as-is" and leave it at that. Like if I am selling the mirrors off of my car, I am only going to advertise them as a pair of side view mirrors from an 89 325i. Even though I know that these mirrors will fit other BMW's as well as other car makes, I do not make myself responsible for knowing any of the applications by volunteering that information. In all of my auctions I always say something to the effect of, "I don't know much about this item so make sure you know what this is before bidding." Secondly, to avoid conflicts and complications I will usually pay the shipping and all other fees so that the winning bid is exactly what they pay. I end up getting higher bids when I do that because the idea of "free shipping" makes my auction that much more valueable.

Sometimes it throws some of my bidders for a loop because they find it hard to believe that some of the stuff that I sell has no reserve, no minimum, and no shipping costs. So they send me dumb emails like, "Well what if I bid only $40 on this $300 item? Will I still get it?" and I reply, "Of course." and by the time everyone else figures out that this is the real deal even though it seems too good to be true, that same $300 item is now in the 400's.

[Rigmaster]

It's against Ebay and Paypal rules to make a buyer pay an extra fee if they pay with Paypal. There is a definite rule somewhere, but I don't have it handy.

I have had pretty good luck so far with Paypal and chargebacks/complaints, etc. BUT, I know how they operate and I am not expecting them to "protect" me in any way shape or form if a dispute arises- to me it's the cost of using Paypal. With an expensive item like this, I would strongly recommend not even accepting Paypal at all- you require USPS money order, period. Sure it takes a couple extra days to get your $$, but there is no chance that they will have you by the balls when something like this happens.

I think you made a mistake when you were "a tad bit rude stating that the buyer had obviously not read through my return procedure (which his issue doesn't fall under) and that he must not have read the part regarding 'please verify for models other than 997S". You really have to suck it up and be as nice as humanly possible no matter what, until these things get settled. Just state the facts, without any judgement or smartass tone, and you'll be better off in the long run.


As for this situation, the guy has you by the balls in a way. If he's already left you neg feedback, I think he deserves a little less in the way of consideration from you. Paypal will likely side with you on any dispute, since it seems that they do not side with the buyer as long as the seller shipped the item(s) and they have proof of receipt by the buyer (delivery confirmation/tracking info). You are 100% screwed if the buyer used a credit card to make the Paypal payment, as he can easily file a dispute with the CC company and Paypal will automatically reverse the payment since they will lose the $$ if they don't. I would continue to try to work it out until the bitter end. Make him some terms for returning the wheels and see what he says. For me, if someone expects to be able to return an item that I represented correctly- the buyer would eat the original shipping charges AND have to pay for return shipping in full. If it's within Paypal's "refund payment" window, there's no reason to be a dick and make them pay Paypal fees as you will get those back when you refund the $$. Same with Ebay final value fees. I guess you could make him pay your Ebay listing fees, but that seems kinda petty to me.


Bret.

[RobertK]

Like Rigmaster mentioned.. Making the buyer pay Paypal fees is against Ebay and Paypal policy. Not only that, but if he can prove that you made him pay the fees it's an automatic charge back through his CC if he did in fact use his CC to pay. I know this because I used to work for a major CC processing company.

When it comes to purchasing expensive items with Paypal I purposely use my Visa check card in case something goes wrong I can just tell my bank and have my $$ back in 24 hours.

[whakiewes]

I can't find anywhere that it is forbidden. It is frowned upon and often there are less bids, but I looked all over Paypal and Ebay and I can't find anything. I am also fairly confident that its not against any CC companies policies if he agreed to pay the fees which he did. He can file for a charge back, and I will gladly stand in court until this is resolved. Unfortunately he is fighting with the wrong person when it comes to things like that, as I will give a little but I won't back down.

I am not sure if anyone else has ever purchased at an auction other than Ebay, but every auction (car, estate, art, etc) the buyer is responsible for paying all fees associated with the sale, not the seller. This guarantees the seller the full amount that was paid for the item, and is how it should work. I pay the fee to list an item with an auctioneer or company, then when it sells I get a check for the exact amount it sold for. Not the price minus the auctioneers fees, credit card fees, etc. If I was a company I could see how asking for the fees would be wrong, but I am a sole individual selling items as is strongly encouraged on Ebay, so the buyer should be responsible. I never ask for Ebay fee's, only Paypal on big items where the buyer has more than one choice.

Wes

[Rigmaster]

Trust me, Ebay specifically PROHIBITS any surcharge for using Paypal (or any other form of payment)- UNLESS it's a "handling fee" and it applies to all purchasers, no matter how they pay.


Here is the text directly from Ebay:


Payment Surcharges


Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation

Limits on account privileges

Account suspension

Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings

Loss of PowerSeller status

Some Examples Hide

Not permitted:

Charging an extra fee to use a credit card instead of a check.

Charging an extra fee to use PayPal.

Permitted:

A seller can add a surcharge to the final price of the item in three instances:

Shipping and Handling - Sellers may charge a reasonable shipping and handling fee to the final price of their item. A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item. Shipping and handling fees cannot be listed as a percentage of the final sale price.

Escrow - Sellers may pass along the costs associated with using escrow, if the buyer agrees to use escrow. Use caution when considering escrow. To avoid being deceived by fraudulent escrow services, use www.escrow.com, eBay's approved escrow service.

Different Currency - Sellers may choose to accept payment in a different currency than the currency listed on eBay. If the buyer chooses to take advantage of this optional payment method, the seller may pass along to the buyer any costs associated with the currency exchange, provided that the costs are disclosed and agreed to in advance by the buyer.

Note: Some types of payment surcharges are permitted on some of eBay's international sites.

Why does eBay have this policy? Hide

This policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the full cost of an item. Furthermore, some forms of payment surcharges (such as credit card surcharges), are forbidden under the laws of many states, including California. These listings undermine the trust and legitimacy of eBay’s marketplace.




While I understand what you're saying about "normal" auctions and how they handle fees- this is Ebay we're talking about, so it has no relevance here.

My advice, take it or leave it- is to NOT accept Paypal for these high value sales in the future- make them send a USPS money order ONLY. You will never have this problem again.


And here's the Paypal policy stating basically the same thing as Ebay's policy:

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.




No offense, but it took me like 2 minutes to find both of those sections on each site.

[whakiewes]

Correct, a surcharge is defined as a fee on top of another fee or charge. By law, that means you charge an extra fee for the use of service on top of the associated fees, which I am not. I am merely saying that if the buyer chooses to use paypal, he agrees to pay the fees associated, in which I have no way of knowing whether its credit, debit, bank transfer, etc.. The only form of payment I am made aware of is an E-Check in which it has to clear.

So in essence if I said to use Paypal there is a $10 fee for the service, then thats a surcharge. By saying that the bidder agrees to pay the fees associated with a service though is not adding a surcharge. I am not charging the user for my ability to use Paypal, but requiring the buyer to pay the fees that Paypal charges.

They further themselves in a ditch by saying it is okay to transfer the fees associated with an Escrow service. So in a court of law, it would not be illegal for me to pass on the fees. Paypal digs them self in a ditch by not providing which form of payment the buyer uses.

I am not saying your wrong or I am right. On smaller priced items I don't care if they use Paypal, but on a $5000 item I stress a money order, wire transfer, etc... but if they choose to use Paypal, forgo the protection, etc.. then they can over the fees.

Wes

[browntown]

Even going by that logic it's still a surcharge, the buyers fee is free! You are adding a fee upon their free fee. The same way little stores add a fee if you want to use a credit card (which is against the terms of their agreement too). Call visa and ask them, you can report merchants for passing their processing fee to you.

[Rigmaster]

Dude, the horse is dead- time to dismount! ;)

Seriously, if you think you will win in an argument about this with Paypal/Ebay, then go ahead. And if you think you have a chance against a Credit card chargeback, then you really have lost your mind.


Good luck, I mean it.

Correct, a surcharge is defined as a fee on top of another fee or charge. By law, that means you charge an extra fee for the use of service on top of the associated fees, which I am not. I am merely saying that if the buyer chooses to use paypal, he agrees to pay the fees associated, in which I have no way of knowing whether its credit, debit, bank transfer, etc.. The only form of payment I am made aware of is an E-Check in which it has to clear.

So in essence if I said to use Paypal there is a $10 fee for the service, then thats a surcharge. By saying that the bidder agrees to pay the fees associated with a service though is not adding a surcharge. I am not charging the user for my ability to use Paypal, but requiring the buyer to pay the fees that Paypal charges.

They further themselves in a ditch by saying it is okay to transfer the fees associated with an Escrow service. So in a court of law, it would not be illegal for me to pass on the fees. Paypal digs them self in a ditch by not providing which form of payment the buyer uses.

I am not saying your wrong or I am right. On smaller priced items I don't care if they use Paypal, but on a $5000 item I stress a money order, wire transfer, etc... but if they choose to use Paypal, forgo the protection, etc.. then they can over the fees.

Wes

[george graves]

And if you think you have a chance against a Credit card chargeback, then you really have lost your mind.

Can you tell me more about this?

[whakiewes]

I honestly don't think you guys have ever taken any law classes. A surcharge is not a fee on top of the sale, its a fee on top of another fee for a service or product supplied. By bidding, they were agreeing to pay the fees associated with the sale. If I said to use Paypal there will be a $10 fee, that is a surcharge. What I was stating is that they dig themselves into a deeper ditch by saying that the fees associated with an Escrow service can be passed on to the buyer. Ebay and Paypal are a massive law suit waiting to happen. Furthermore Paypal is not even FDIC insured and they offer credit and debit cards acting as a financial institution. Not that the plaintiff would win as Ebay and Paypal have enough means to make anything go away, but it would be serious.

As to a credit card chargeback, have you ever read the user agreement on your credit card about chargebacks. Have you ever tried to issue one? They are incredibly hard where you have to provide a ton of information about your reasoning for a charge back. It takes a bit of time. Somewhere it got passed on the internet that you can merely call your bank and provide a chargeback. Its not that easy, especially if you use one of the online financial institutions like Capital One, etc... There also has to be overwhelming reason for it that no Ebay sale can provide unless you never receive the item or its broken in shipping, or not as described such as condition. Paypal tries to avoid this by offering no protection when you use your CC.

I am not worried. There are enough disclaimers to keep me in the clear. Paypal only allows an item to be refunded as 'not as desribed' if its not the same product as recieved or in a different condition than shown or described. My product was neither. Furthermore under Ebay's terms the buyer has to do his/her research before bidding about the product they are buying. The buyer did not do that either. If they want me to refund the $45 the guy sent me for the Paypal fees then I will, but otherwise I am pretty sure I am in the clear.

Wes

[browntown]

nm