If there was a draft would you go?

[Ablice]

Oh, I'm not making it a caliber debate - I'm just saying if there is justification for a totally new gun to be brought into the military, there better be a much better reason that those you have used.

The only unique thing to sigs (and it's been copied by Glock, etc.), is that round - I personnally like my SIGs all in 357sig, but I would expect a 1911 & a ar-15/m-16, maybe a ar-10 if I end up in a really rich unit. Off track, I just don't expect the military to cater to my gun choice, I'm being called to do a job, not ride a float in a parade.

Basic idea here is if you do train you gain comfort. I sort of thought my ar-10 was a little weird the first few times out, but now it's almost my favorite. Your body & mind will adapt, you just need to show up when you get your slip in the mail.

Well to be fair, as I believe it, if you volunteer, then they can give you anything they want. You initiated it, you made your choice to fill out the slips of paper. But when you're drafted, they come to you, not the other way around.

Just saying. They can give their people whatever they want. But none of their stuff they hand out that goes bang multiple times feels comfortable to me. What am I to do about that? And personally I don't get all enthusastic about chuggin' 70+ lbs of gear *and* expected to haul ass around like it's not there. Granted you can get used to it put 70+ pounds is HEAVY, and your flak jacket on top of that. Granted they want you to be prepared for quite a lot of circumstances but sheesh, if you've got the $$$ to dump on that crap maybe we can...allow some changes in preferences...

Similar thing with bicycles. I don't like those trigger/lever gear shifters, I prefer twist-grip shifters. The ease of rapid down shifting or upshifting combined by the simplicity of operation suits me. Now my uncle is another side -- he likes the other version. That's cool with me, I couldn't care since I'm not the same as him when it comes to things like that.

I simply just don't find the AR platform suited to my tastes. Am I supposed to force myself to adapt to the (based on my experience) POOR magazine release button? I like the paddle release of the HKs. Easy as cake, and the HKs have the button on the side if you like it that way, but I find it excruiatingly hard to push that button and it's way out of reach of my finger.

Am I supposed to bashed and beaten because of that? That's what I have been in this thread, so I can definitely imagine they won't tolerate my differences in the military any better than here. That's fine, because they can count on me not signing up, and if I do get drafted, then they can either adapt or probably shove me in a desk job. And I hate desk jobs. Which can lead to poor performance and lackluster moral.

Way to go eh?

EDIT: And yes, I hear .357SIG is an expensive round, PDs that have adopted it (I *hear*) have little $$$ for practice ammo. So obviously the military aside from top-of-the-line units are not going to get that -- maybe not even Green Berets. But if you prefer .357SIG that is cool with me, I couldn't care less.

[LINUS]

Oh, I'm not making it a caliber debate - I'm just saying if there is justification for a totally new gun to be brought into the military, there better be a much better reason that those you have used.

The only unique thing to sigs (and it's been copied by Glock, etc.), is that round - I personnally like my SIGs all in 357sig, but I would expect a 1911 & a ar-15/m-16, maybe a ar-10 if I end up in a really rich unit. Off track, I just don't expect the military to cater to my gun choice, I'm being called to do a job, not ride a float in a parade.


Basic idea here is if you do train you gain comfort. I sort of thought my ar-10 was a little weird the first few times out, but now it's almost my favorite. Your body & mind will adapt, you just need to show up when you get your slip in the mail.

[Ablice]

LOL at all the bashing of 9mm. 9mm +P in JHP is a formidable round. There's no need to turn this in into a caliber debate since those are all over the INTERNETZ anyway so..yeah....357 SIG does use a .355 bullet (same as 9mm and .357 MAG) albiet at much higher pressures.

There are many people that don't fit the full size 1911 platform. Just read another example just earlier today — the member said his finger barely even touches the trigger. Also finds the slide release too hard to reach (I have a bit of that too, I hafta rotate the pistol in my hand to get at the slide release with my thumb), so does that make him a unfit person for combat?

And let's not get all heated on each other just because someone else likes 9mm and someone else likes something else. As long as reliability is no question and operater fit and accuracy with the pistol are in buisness, caliber has little issue. If you can't hit the side of a barn with a .500 S&W, it's just as bad using a .22LR. (That's a reference BTW)

[LINUS]

M9 does not equal SIG. Very different pistols. Come back when you have reasons that are reasonable such that proves the M9 is superior in every possible way to the SIG. We'll use the P226 for this — 9mm, double stack, full size pistol.

As a SIG owner, I'd have gone with you on the SIG deal if you would have brought up 357sig rounds as a reason why, but a 9mm is a 9mm - some are more reliable than others, but if your deal is a SIG 9mm then join the Navy before you get drafted.

And for all others reading I realize the major PITA that adding another round to stock & standardize on would be plain stupid, just pointing out to Alice the only redeeming quality as I see it on the SIG issue.

But in general, I think if you train with pretty much any gun long enough, you'll do just fine with it.

The gun isn't the problem - it's the operator, practice can change that.

[atomic]

Well obviously the firearm is one of your most important piece of kit, (This is my rifle this is my Gun LOL) but thanks to intel supplied here I won't bother with the military. Obviously they are more interested in fat grants and college than other things. Oh well, they can do just fine without me.

*snickers at non-conformity in regards to firearm preferences*

THANK YOU !!

[Ablice]

If you don't like your gun in the army, they shove it up your ass. It's like saying you don't look good in a uniform. The army can be quite brutal in dealing with non-conformity.

Well obviously the firearm is one of your most important piece of kit, (This is my rifle this is my Gun LOL) but thanks to intel supplied here I won't bother with the military. Obviously they are more interested in fat grants and college than other things. Oh well, they can do just fine without me.

*snickers at non-conformity in regards to firearm preferences*

[Jscotty]

ABlice = Fanzotti

I have come to realize this through this conversation

Yeah.. I picked up on that a bit earlier myself.

[mitch500]

fuck no! canada ftw. jk, yeah i would go to .

[lucky7]

Voltaire:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

That being said, fuck yes i would be there.

that may be the best quote ive ever heard. so you're all going to read it again.

[1991 318is]

If called up by draft I'm checking in, but they will have to deal with my weapon preferences. It's like if you get called into the...let's say, graphics section of government, let's pretend that it exists. There they give you PCs when you'd mcuh rather have a MAC, or visa versa.
I like being ganged up upon for not liking the AR or the M9. Except that <<<<<< doesn't take that crap.

If you don't like your gun in the army, they shove it up your ass. It's like saying you don't look good in a uniform. The army can be quite brutal in dealing with non-conformity.

[Ablice]

MMMmmkay.

I have no relation to him. But he's probably a nice chap.

[atomic]

ABlice = Fanzotti

I have come to realize this through this conversation

[Ablice]

The M9 will shoot the same as a Sig P226 will ,both will kill and both will work the same. The Sig is not going to make you shoot better at all. If the M9 does not fit then you have to adapt to it since that is what they give you. You have NO choice in this matter at all !!! They military is not going to pony up for sig's that are twice as much as the M9 when it passes all of their requirements in realibility and safety... and can be done for half the price period.

The last time I held a SIG it fit me suprisingly well. I thought I was done with double stack pistols (Glock turnoff, M9 turn off, etc) but the SIG felt really good. I wonder how a good feeling pistol makes someone shoot the same as another pistol that feels like I'm holding a tree trunk.

You haven't heard when the SIG and the M9 went up against each other back in the 80's? The main reason for the M9 adoptance was because of price. Slightly cheaper. Poo. Read here please for who officially uses the SIG.

No choice in the matter? Alright, cool. Just don't come bitching when your recruitment levels are through the floor, you are upping bonuses and lowering recruitment standards. Great, now I get to hangout with more dirtbags. Instead of a 75,000 max college expediture perhaps we could spend 1500 of that and get a quality SIG, 500 more and an armful of spare mags (in case you loose some, feed lips get damaged beyond repair, etc etc) and we're in buisness, and while we're at it if you insist on giving me a .223 cal rifle gimme a HK 33e while you're at it, heck I won't use half of that 75,000 college dough. Slap a ACOG on there and I won't complain about my guns.

Same goes for the AR/M16/M4 which were developed to be a lightweight dependable weapon designed for one thing which is to kill at great distances and was also developed to be versatile as well for different needs... Which can be adapted to be used in urban enviroments as well. And if you want to get serious about it that they can even be used as a pistol !!! Now who wouldnt want a full auto .223 rem pistol !!!!!!

The Barrett .50bmg is about 45" long and weighs easily 35-40lbs loaded !!!

It was not intended to kill at great distances. That's what marksmanship rifles are for. It follows the definition of an assualt rifle: medium length rifle chambered in an intermediate cartridge with the capability of fully automatic fire. Assualt rifles are not sniper or combat marksmanship rifles, but they COULD be used for those purposes but their caliber and barrel lengths among other things are not designed for that.

Who wouldn't want a .223 FA gun? Seen those. I'll pass on one and get a Mini Uzi instead for a compact buzzgun. BTW those little incarnations are not pistols, since they are chambered in intermediate cartridges, and most pistols are not fully automatic, fully auto pistols like the G18c usually fall under the classification of machine pistols, which probably includes little wildcats like the Micro Uzi and MAC-12. I'm not a pro, there's lots of grey area and heated discussions about such classifications, so YMMV.

.50BMG rifle? Eh. What would I use it for? Sniping is not my thing.

If you earn some rank and tenure, then MAYBE you will be given a choice as to which weapon you would like to carry. And then also consider that by the time you get to that rank, you will no longer be on the front lines.
The military is a very structured and uniform organization. They do not al-la-carte the weapons and ammo.

Also know that in ANY job, (unless you are hired as a specialist, consultant, or a contractor) you are required to use the tools that they give you. Even in any government job- If they use PC's in that particular deparment and you tell them that you only work on Macs, then one of two things will happen. Either #1. You will be looking for another job or #2. you will be learning how to use a new computer.

If they do not wish to...*ahem* "cater" to my requirements they can surely deal without one man. They probably will throw me in the white walled resort rather than deal with my "problems".

If they draft you and give you a PC when you know nothing about PCs, only MACs, could you raise some rife about that? Stubbornness in militarys to adopt better technologies has been well documented...read up on the times when the armies of more sizeable nations continued to stick with muzzle loading rifles even when reliable lever action repeaters were coming about. Then they'd throw away the muzzle loaders of the war that just happened, then come another war and they frantically dig up the ones they just threw away, and order more muzzle loaders. Genius.

[Jscotty]

If called up by draft I'm checking in, but they will have to deal with my weapon preferences.

If you earn some rank and tenure, then MAYBE you will be given a choice as to which weapon you would like to carry. And then also consider that by the time you get to that rank, you will no longer be on the front lines.
The military is a very structured and uniform organization. They do not al-la-carte the weapons and ammo.

Also know that in ANY job, (unless you are hired as a specialist, consultant, or a contractor) you are required to use the tools that they give you. Even in any government job- If they use PC's in that particular deparment and you tell them that you only work on Macs, then one of two things will happen. Either #1. You will be looking for another job or #2. you will be learning how to use a new computer.

[atomic]

Nope. M9 does not equal SIG. Very different pistols. Come back when you have reasons that are reasonable such that proves the M9 is superior in every possible way to the SIG. We'll use the P226 for this — 9mm, double stack, full size pistol.

The M9 will shoot the same as a Sig P226 will ,both will kill and both will work the same. The Sig is not going to make you shoot better at all. If the M9 does not fit then you have to adapt to it since that is what they give you. You have NO choice in this matter at all !!! They military is not going to pony up for sig's that are twice as much as the M9 when it passes all of their requirements in realibility and safety... and can be done for half the price period.

Same goes for the AR/M16/M4 which were developed to be a lightweight dependable weapon designed for one thing which is to kill at great distances and was also developed to be versatile as well for different needs... Which can be adapted to be used in urban enviroments as well. And if you want to get serious about it that they can even be used as a pistol !!! Now who wouldnt want a full auto .223 rem pistol !!!!!!


The Barrett .50bmg is about 45" long and weighs easily 35-40lbs loaded !!!