Obama Campaign Theatrics --- woman faints @ rallies a scam?

[Hallen]

a: Sorry for being unclear, that's not what I intended.
b: adoption IS a very worthwhile choice... kind of.
There is still a surplus of orphans that do not get adopted, and honestly, I question the REAL values that the adopters hold.

No worries, I figured that is where you were going with it. I think we have basically the same views on the subject.
There is a "surplus" of older kids, problem kids, and foster kids, but there really isn't a surplus of newborns needing adoption. Most families want to adopt a baby. I have friends that waited for years and spent thousands of dollars trying to adopt (through the normal, government legal channels). They finally gave up and went to China and adopted a baby girl... twice. I personally know two families that have done the same thing. It is a sad commentary on the government run adoption programs and how inefficient they are. I think it also points to how hard it is to give up a baby, even if the mother and father (if he has not bailed) do not want a child and are in no position to take care of one.

I do agree that the "I have nothing to hide" argument on privacy is a very weak argument. Protection of our privacy is a very important and delicate thing. Like the abortion issue, where do you draw the line. I think you have to look at the good of the Nation and balance that against the individual. If the invasion of privacy is controlled and small and there are sufficient checks and balances to insure that the scope of what gets flagged is specifically targeted to the specific needs of law enforcement, then I am mostly OK with it. We all have to make some sacrifices to insure that we stay free. However, I have no problem with pushing back against this kind of thing to make sure it stays in check.
The part I don't like is that opponents have blown the current "Patriot Act" stuff out of proportion and make it sound much worse for personal privacy than it is. The chances of the government actively monitoring your emails and phone conversations is ridiculously small. Some of your emails may get fed through a government filter somewhere, but at the point that email leaves your computer, it is in the public domain. It may be intended for a single other person, but it is in the public domain at that point. The chances of it getting flagged is even smaller. Even if it does get flagged and reviewed by a human, it will be read and ignored. Don't give more credit to what the FBI can do than what is due. They are just human like us and there are not that many of them. Especially with the Internet, don't ever assume that anything you put out there is private.

I love the way politicians change words around to suit their needs. Last night, Obama kept referring to Illegal Aliens as "Undocumented Workers" as if it were synonymous. What? Are you kidding? You are trying to imply that all illegal aliens are just people looking for legitimate work? And even if they are, using that term gives them some semblance of legitimacy when they have none. Of course they were in Austin, Texas, so he had to pander to the large illegal population there.

[LINUS]

- do NOT associate the conservative party with the bible thumpers soley, PLEASE. They are just as nuts as the lunatic left. You are a self-proclaimed demo, but you're obviously not a fringe lune. I'm a conservative, but I'm not thumping my bible, screaming kill the fags beause they are evil and sinful. You know what I mean? It's an extreme example.

I felt this was a point that needed re-emphasis. Seems most people refuse to take the time to see the division. Extremely good point to bring up.


As for the abortion stuff - good idea, separate thread. Looks like Heeter is spearheading that one, in one form or another. We'll let him start that thread.

tom, we agree on something!

I am no longer the flaming liberal I used to be.

[benDASHDASH]

As a Libertarian, I mostly agree with what you have to say. I don't agree with your stance on privacy though. Although I really don't have anything to hide, it is simply within my constitutional rights to expect my personal belongings and information to be kept private from anyone, including the government. Sure, a quick baggage search here, or a quick search of some medical records there may seem harmless but what is next? At what point does it stop being about protecting us from terrorists, and start being about keeping us in check. We are all part of a very sophisticated economic machine and the government has a lot of interest in knowing who we are, where we are and what we are doing at all times. Privacy = freedom. Without privacy, you don't have freedom.

tom, we agree on something!

This thread is excellent.

I'll start with Dave.

- The most inconsistent people regarding beliefs is the democratic party - fringe left particularly. Moderate demo's, just like moderate repub's, are not nearly so inconsistant as the radicals. This is pretty obvious as the more extreme you are in an inter-related dynamic environment; the most open you are to contradiction and hypocracy when you start making concrete assertions.

- You're confusing conservatism with the religous right. It's a stereotype. Before I get that slung back at me, I've been very fair to the Dems and made a point of not making this adversarial. Things like abortion, drugs, gay marriage are things that primarily concern the major religious sectors. I could care less of homo's want to plug each other in the ass, and if you want to give them tax benefits as a "civil union" go for it. Just don't call it mariage because it isn't, and let them do what they want behind closed doors. The war on drugs is a war that won't be won. This truly is not the repubs or dems fault. To win the war on drugs, you have to get SERIOUS and by that I mean military tactics on people inside this country at a major level and getting serious about the business. Lib's don't want to hurt anyone with serious action, repubs can't agree with the libs on how to handle it. So, it's a cluster fuck and it will remain that way. I'm not talking about pot, nor am I in any way suggesting that drug use is acceptable (heavy drugs particularly).

- Regarding the "rights that are being taken away" - that's bull. Do you have something to hide? I could give a shit less what they look at of mine for national security purposes. To educate my self on word developments, I've cruised the internet to find a lot of information. I'm positive I've been to sites and used google search terms that have put me on a least once watch list. But if they want to come scan my computer, look at my porn, and steal my term papers - fine with me. I've got nothing to hide, and nothing but good intentions. They aren't trying to get me for pirated music, they are trying to see if i'm coooking up something much more serious. I have no problem with this sort of thing - and IMO you really only have a problem if you've got something to hide.

-I will post an entirely seperate post for pro-lifers on the death penalty- that's a hell of an interesting topic.

- do NOT associate the conservative party with the bible thumpers soley, PLEASE. They are just as nuts as the lunatic left. You are a self-proclaimed demo, but you're obviously not a fringe lune. I'm a conservative, but I'm not thumping my bible, screaming kill the fags beause they are evil and sinful. You know what I mean? It's an extreme example.

- I applaud the remainder of your post - I really appreciate your balanced approach to the discussion. It has been a great contribution.

As a Libertarian, I mostly agree with what you have to say. I don't agree with your stance on privacy though. Although I really don't have anything to hide, it is simply within my constitutional rights to expect my personal belongings and information to be kept private from anyone, including the government. Sure, a quick baggage search here, or a quick search of some medical records there may seem harmless but what is next? At what point does it stop being about protecting us from terrorists, and start being about keeping us in check. We are all part of a very sophisticated economic machine and the government has a lot of interest in knowing who we are, where we are and what we are doing at all times. Privacy = freedom. Without privacy, you don't have freedom.

[uofom3]

Bottom line....we are fucked. All three we have to choose from will lead this country further down the shit hole.
Hillary is a joke, don't even need to get started with her.
Obama is no leader. Liberal as hell.
McCain is Bush but with much better speech skills. But will also lead us down the same exact path.

I'm sorry but this is worthless. Hillary IS a joke, but more sensible than Obama. Obama can speak like a preacher, but his speach means nothing. McCain is a flaming liberal in direct comparison to the incumbant. This post just really doesn't solve anything, or add anything to an otherwise informed discussion. I guess it's not my place to be the judge/jury/executioner on what is sound.... but please contribute something more than cliche and obligatory comments.

[rwh11385]

Although I would prefer shaved, I have no real complaint about Bush as long as it's an option vs. Clinton.

[joshh]

Bottom line....we are fucked. All three we have to choose from will lead this country further down the shit hole.
Hillary is a joke, don't even need to get started with her.
Obama is no leader. Liberal as hell.
McCain is Bush but with much better speech skills. But will also lead us down the same exact path.

[Funkmasta]

reviews our buying habits (yes this is done), and overall has become more of a surveillance society, has gone too far.

I DO like the government to stay out of my life as much as possible, but their PRIMARY responsibility is to keep us safe. If that means that they need to have my emails go through a random filter for a random keyword, so be it.

Where I do have a minor issue is that, the MOST dangerous people are smart. Well smarter than the government bots. However, in the age of the internet, the Patriot act is very necessary... Possibly could have saved many at Columbine.

[Funkmasta]

I don't really want to go there.
a: is silly. Are you trying to say that if I don't agree with abortion, that I should lock my kids in a closet so they can't possibly ever have sex? That is obviously unrealistic and since it really only applies to female children, it becomes even more absurd.

b: adoption is a very real and very worthwhile choice. Also, you may not want a child, but once the inevitable happens, it is your responsibility to care for and love that child. Trust me when I tell you that if you are a good person with a sense of responsibility, you will do just that.

The decision comes down to if you believe that the instant an egg is fertilized, it is human and has a soul. That is something that is non-provable one way or the other. Either you believe it does have a soul and is therefore a living breathing human being and therefore to abort it is to commit murder. Or, you don't believe it is human until it is born... er or is it 6 months, or anytime after the first trimester or ... what. Anyway, somewhere in there it becomes human and should not be killed.

That is why I don't want it to be a political debate. There is no answer for this question. Only personal belief. If you push the government to make a decision on this kind of thing where there is no answer, don't be surprised if the decision that comes back is not what you wanted. If the government errs on the safe side, there will be no abortion. If they say it is allowable, you might not like the terms.

I guess it is cowardice on my part, but trying to determine if abortion is murder or not is something that I just can't answer. My preferred stance is that abortion should be avoided as much as possible and abstinence and prevention promoted as much as possible. But I am also unwilling to make that decision for someone else.

a: Sorry for being unclear, that's not what I intended.
Beliefs LARGELY are nurtured. If you don't like abortion, allow it. The mothers that choose it will clearly not be passing on their beliefs to their children. It will even itself out. No woman WANTS an abortion. Zero zilch nada. And no SANE woman would choose abortion as a birth control method.
Obviously late term abortions

b: adoption IS a very worthwhile choice... kind of.
There is still a surplus of orphans that do not get adopted, and honestly, I question the REAL values that the adopters hold.

c: As long as abortion is legal, it can be studied and administered in a way that is safe. Girls are going to do it anyway.

Abortion is ALWAYS going to be frowned upon. It is not going to be something that is just accepted as a norm.

Sorry for the threadjack... just wanted to clarify

[1991 318is]

Amen... uh wait, I mean, right on! :D

If you have read this whole thread and it has sparked you to examine your beliefs and why you have those beliefs then something very good has happened. All I want is for people to really examine and question and seek real answers instead of just following the herd. If you end up with a different conclusion than what I hold and you did so through informed intelligence, then good on you.

That has to be the most altruistic justification for hijacking a thread ever. Campaign theatrics, indeed - oh no, I think I'm going to faint!

[Dave]

I'm not pro choice. I'm pro killing babies.

Shop Vac is your friend.

And I did not equate all Rs with the bible thumping variety, Ted. But you have to admit, the Bush regime relied a lot on that base. They are part of the group under the Republican tent. I think they are a big problem, just like I think the fringe on the liberal side is.

I am sorry, but the "what have you got to hide" argument has not and will never fly with me. Sure, when I get on a plane and it is a gennuine safety issue, ok. But the dragnet that scans our emails, reviews our buying habits (yes this is done), and overall has become more of a surveillance society, has gone too far.

[rwh11385]

I'm not pro choice. I'm pro killing babies.

[Hallen]

This was the entire purpose behind my checking this thread over and over again.

I'm very interested in politics, and really enjoy discussing this stuff.

If someone can read this and start to develop some critical thinking and learn more about how the world works, then the time spent has been worth it. Hopefully more than those who vocalized have read this and feel the same way.

Amen... uh wait, I mean, right on! :D

If you have read this whole thread and it has sparked you to examine your beliefs and why you have those beliefs then something very good has happened. All I want is for people to really examine and question and seek real answers instead of just following the herd. If you end up with a different conclusion than what I hold and you did so through informed intelligence, then good on you.

[uofom3]

This thread is so so SO awesome!

I'd almost tell anyone that wants to learn to read it, some great information in here.

Couple things to add - basically just agreeing here...I can't believe Obama said that. Raising the min. wage is a way to disaster. AH!

Anyway, I just wanna keep reading, this is great stuff! I almost need to go thru and make cliff notes, so I can remember this stuff when my liberal retarded friends want to get on my case for not wanting Obama or some retarded crap like that. heh

This thread has been very informative to me as well. This will be my first time voting in a presidential election, and the current info here has questioned which political party I want to affiliate myself with. Thanks guys.

This was the entire purpose behind my checking this thread over and over again.

I'm very interested in politics, and really enjoy discussing this stuff.

If someone can read this and start to develop some critical thinking and learn more about how the world works, then the time spent has been worth it. Hopefully more than those who vocalized have read this and feel the same way.