Religion Poll

[Ral]

Not being perfect and being "evil/overbearing/oppressive/greedy" are not the synonymous. No one is perfect but not everyone is all (or even any) of the things that you describe. If I pretend for a moment that sins are not imaginary - then I don't believe everyone is born evil.

John Calvin called - he wants his bad ideas back.

So... somewhere, there's someone in the world who has never put himself above anyone else? Never had the slightest temptation go gain more for himself over someone else, wanted more than what he had, tried to get ahead, nothing? From the moment he was born, put his fellow men ahead of himself?

It's an all-or-nothing thing. It's not about the good outweighing the bad, it's the presence of the bad, i.e. human imperfections, being present at all. Sin, as I understand it was originally meant, is synonymous with "falling short of the ideal". And, as you stated, no one is perfect. Doesn't mean you are a "bad" person, or that you behave that way all the time, but you (and I, and everyone else) are most definitely not perfect.

edit:

Thanks, Mariano.

[Turf1600]

So... somewhere, there's someone in the world who has never put himself above anyone else? Never had the slightest temptation go gain more for himself over someone else, wanted more than what he had, tried to get ahead, nothing? From the moment he was born, put his fellow men ahead of himself?

It's an all-or-nothing thing. It's not about the good outweighing the bad, it's the presence of the bad, i.e. human imperfections, being present at all. Sin, as I understand it was originally meant, is synonymous with "falling short of the ideal". And, as you stated, no one is perfect. Doesn't mean you are a "bad" person, or that you behave that way all the time, but you (and I, and everyone else) are most definitely not perfect.

edit:

Thanks, Mariano.

I understand what you believe - but your point is moot (for argument's sake) because I don't believe in any of it. Sin included. Any argument that I make would have to be hypothetical. I believe that people are born "good". It's their experiences and chosen influences that guide them elsewhere.

It's truly funny how nicely Christianity is designed. What a nice social experiment.

[Ral]

I understand what you believe - but your point is moot (for argument's sake) because I don't believe in any of it. Sin included. Any argument that I make would have to be hypothetical. I believe that people are born "good". It's their experiences and chosen influences that guide them elsewhere.

My question would be this: If people are born "good", i.e. perfect, then their chosen responses would always tend toward good? I'm not arguing (honest), just curious. I know how people of similar beliefs would answer this, I'm curious to hear a differing viewpoint.

It's truly funny how nicely Christianity is designed. What a nice social experiment.

I'm curious to know why you included this at the end, given the care that I (and those that hold similar views) take to ensure we come across as educated, open-minded people and don't show disdain for anyone else's comments. YOu may have thought it was witty, but it's pretty ironic from someone who wants to respect others' opinions and expects his opinion to be respected.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I'm curious to know why you included this at the end, given the care that I (and those that hold similar views) take to ensure we come across as educated, open-minded people and don't show disdain for anyone else's comments. YOu may have thought it was witty, but it's pretty ironic from someone who wants to respect others' opinions and expects his opinion to be respected.

That's zInG~! worthy.

[s0urce]

The ark is sinking.

[ragged325]

My question would be this: If people are born "good", i.e. perfect, then their chosen responses would always tend toward good?

If you think good and perfect are synonymous, I'm guessing that you didn't do very well on the SATs. I think churches are now trying to say sin is just falling short of perfection as a way to appeal to more people. The core message of Christianity is that Jesus had to die on a cross so that you could be forgiven for you sins. It's not just a small thing that you're not quite perfect. I'm pretty sure Christians created a place they call Hell for sinners to go when they die.

So... somewhere, there's someone in the world who has never put himself above anyone else? Never had the slightest temptation go gain more for himself over someone else, wanted more than what he had, tried to get ahead, nothing? From the moment he was born, put his fellow men ahead of himself?

Are you saying that it is wrong to want more than what you have or to try to get ahead?

I think it's fine for you to say that in your Christian philosophy, it's better to think of others before yourself. Personally, I'm looking out for myself and my family. It's not my job to take care of everyone else. I do my best to treat others the way I would like to be treated, and if I can help someone else out great, but I don't think I'm a bad person for looking out for my own interests. If you think being perfect means giving away all of your possessions and thinking of others first, good luck raising a family.

I went to Catholic church every week until I was 18. Baptism, confession, communion, confirmation, CCD and all of that. Personally, I think most people are scared to die and if it means they can live forever, they're willing to pretend that Santa Claus is real. Really, you don't have to look that closely to see the inconsistencies and problems with it all.

[Turf1600]

My question would be this: If people are born "good", i.e. perfect, then their chosen responses would always tend toward good? I'm not arguing (honest), just curious. I know how people of similar beliefs would answer this, I'm curious to hear a differing viewpoint.

There's a good deal of time between being born and having to make that kind of decision. Like I said earlier, people's influences and experiences play a huge role.

I'm curious to know why you included this at the end, given the care that I (and those that hold similar views) take to ensure we come across as educated, open-minded people and don't show disdain for anyone else's comments. YOu may have thought it was witty, but it's pretty ironic from someone who wants to respect others' opinions and expects his opinion to be respected.

Well, I guess I should have gone into more detail. Here's what I was thinking when I typed that.

1. People are raised to believe that they are always sinners - no matter what (at least you seem to believe this)

2. If you are not forgiven for your sins - you go to hell.

3. The lord is the only way to be forgiven.

1+2+3 = A constant demand for a believer to be well, religious. If you buy into the first 3 it's only logical to be a worshiper. Like I said - It's nicely designed. With the social experiment part - this same premise exists in many religions. How must one make an educated decision regarding which to choose???

[StereoInstaller1]

OK, so to "sin" is supposed to be (and always supposed to have been) simply "missing the mark" or falling just short of perfection, not some evil deed or behavior. Murder or rape is not just falling short of the mark, it is evil, especially when thought out in advance.

Following Christ is supposed to do 2 things: 1. Forgive us our sins and 2. Teach us how to live without "sinning", i.e., "Treat others how we would be treated" etc.

That is actually SUPPOSED to be the core belief of the Christian Church.

Basically, be good BECAUSE YOU WANT TO dammit, and stop fucking up!

Unfortunately, greedy bastards have perverted the original idea into "Give us money and pray while doing so or [Mr Hat voice] You can go to HELL![/Mr Hat voice]

Seriously.

The connection all through European history of conquer and subjugate while claiming it for "the blood of Christ" while in fact filling the Churches' coffers with riches beyond belief is simply nauseating...and as long as churches are tax free, nothing will ever change.

Personally, I have 2 issues. The ignorant morons who think they are "forgiven" as the drive drunk, fuck others over, have illicit relations, lie, cheat and steal...just because they are "good Christians"...the other issue is churches being allowed to have ANY extra money at all...or not be required to pay taxes on their wealth.

If you become Christian, develop the whole monotheist viewpoint, decide to stop being bad, try your best no matter the cost to do the right thing and generally live an exemplary life, I will get down on my knees and pray with you any day. You are good people in my eyes. You deserve my respect and love.

If you are like 99.99% of the fucktards who call themselves Christian and have no clue what that actually means, do whatever you want when no one is watching you, then act all proper when supervised...well, fuck you very much, you stupid piece of shit, you have ruined the name of Christ and all he taught. In fact, you are the #1 reason why anyone telling me that they are "Christian" raises my hackles...

Nope, sorry, I don't take checks, can I see your ID, please?

[1991 318is]

The teachings of Christ are inconsistent with a lot of the teachings of Christianity as it exists today. The followers of Christ during the time he was living were pacifist, communist, and anti-materialistic. They were also tolerant and accepting of the insane, diseased, and morally reprehensible types of their day. Even the tax collectors. If He were alive today he would be running around with a bunch of day laborers, IRS agents, and some of those folks you see on street corners. The ones with a shopping cart and a winter coat on in the summertime because they're so full of MHMR outpatient drugs. A true Christian would be practicing Christ's teachings on prayer from the Sermon on the Mount instead of all the stuff about prayer in public schools. The man actually said to give all your stuff to the poor and follow him and that if someone attacks you to turn the other cheek. Imagine John Calvin shoving a Puritan through the eye of a needle.
One of the funniest things I have ever heard concerns the King Jame's Version of the Bible. It was the first of the translations that attempted to make it more relevant to contemporary people. A woman here in Texas actually said during a debate on English as the official language, "If the English language was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for them Mexicans!"
Like that Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys song said, "They don't make Jews like Jesus anymore."
Christianity is the largest religion (over 30%). Christ's teachings are undoubtedly the most challenging to the individual. To actually attempt to live by them is an almost heroic endeavor. To proselytize the teachings of Christianity as it exists today is the most cowardly and despicable substitute for true religious sentiment.

[Maluco]

What ever happened to scripture? Most lean towards the matter of persons and/or churches/institutions and the different variations and deviations of religion.

Of course what happened after scripture was open to distortion and misapplication. Men have agendas and will use whatever available to acheive them! So if to really argue or discuss, why not do so based on the actual scriptures. While that will only open up the topic of translation etc, at least we are so much closer to the origin and belief(s)/faith(s) at hand.

[Farbin Kaiber]

What ever happened to scripture? Most lean towards the matter of persons and/or churches/institutions and the different variations and deviations of religion.

Of course what happened after scripture was open to distortion and misapplication. Men have agendas and will use whatever available to acheive them! So if to really argue or discuss, why not do so based on the actual scriptures. While that will only open up the topic of translation etc, at least we are so much closer to the origin and belief(s)/faith(s) at hand.

Great point. But as I see it, Christianity is covered, what about the rest?

[Turf1600]

what about the rest?

:wgaf:

[Gladeoffer]

Satan seems cool. With the three pointed stick thingy,horns are a good look, oh and I like his hooves. Jedi? Anyone want to be in the Jedi religion? No? Ok? I like to switch it up, whoever knocks on my door and tells me what religion is best seems like the best way to go! Maybe whatever those savages with the feathers in their heads had the right idea?

Bottom line______religion has killed more people than all natural disaster and plauges combined. Soooo....I would like to be the religion thats in the lead, the one that has killed the most people. Everybody likes a winner.

When you die: would you rather have virgins and holy water or WISKEY and HORES?

[browntown]

happy zombie jesus day.