American Exceptionalism

[rwh11385]

that's a stereotype - and now an attack on people with a conservative mindset. Some of your stuff sounds pretty hateful, which drives the divide further. Maybe you don't mean it that way, but it comes of like that.

I've been surrounded by a few stubborn conservatives in organizations recently and am sick of the brickwall mentality. What sounds hateful? I'm just annoyed along with other people of the world and see what people say about Americans.

I'll look into it.

So what DO you stand for then? If you're always flexible and moulding when are you holding strong and ahereing to a belief system? That's the problem with constantly re-evaluating and questioning yourself - you loose sight of what made you, you after a while.

Being flexible in view is not necessary flexible in belief. It simply means one allows themselves to think about how one thinks about what one stands for. The focus is always the same, it's just through different perspectives.

It's the difference between "I believe because I believe" and "I'm been open to other concepts are out there and through my enemies eyes of what I believe, and have come back to this with a greater understanding and appreciation for it, along with the others"

[Jand3rson]

Time to break up the tension a little...

[trent]

I'm just annoyed along with other people of the world and see what people say about Americans.

I am honestly curious, what does it matter if Americans are disliked or not?

[rwh11385]

We're involved in the world and make impacts on others and we shouldn't consider other people we interact with and understand what they are doing? We are going to do things and other countries would be open to hear us if we cared to hear them. The US "we're going to do what we want" isn't popular and does not get people to play with us, so we're the bully of the playground they see and doesn't help our situation.

I mean, we could just be arrogant and try to run the world including people who want their own freedom and wait until some people fly planes into our buildings as a sign of their dislike for us...

An Indian national I know said 9/11 was justified. Of course I don't agree but I at least understand how someone could feel that way. We're not winning friends in the world being arrogant, and sitting back and being Mr. Moneybags and influencing people when they need us isn't the way to go. If India and China continue to grow in strength they could be influence and then who will listen to the has-been US? What if someone doesn't respect us like we didn't respect other parts of the world?

[alexw]

An Indian national I know said 9/11 was justified. Of course I don't agree but I at least understand how someone could feel that way.

Ok, so you don't agree, but you understand how someone else feels that way... Thats not much different pal.

Most people say we're bullies NOW, after 9/11, not before.

[rwh11385]

Ok, so you don't agree, but you understand how someone else feels that way... Thats not much different pal.

Actually... it is very different. We haven't been the best behaved country in the world and didn't play nice all the time. If someone was from a culture who feels victimized by the US, they may feel something should be done. Even if I don't feel the same way, I could see why he has negative feelings - and to not see how that would be possible is arrogance that we can do no wrong.

Of course, you could just grill someone for not seeing the world and the actions of the US in the same light as you and be like many other Americans and people who dealt with him. And then we'll just be where we are now - for the most part not giving a shit how the world thinks about the US and then wondering why France and other nations don't like us, or respect our policies

[trent]

We're involved in the world and make impacts on others and we shouldn't consider other people we interact with and understand what they are doing? We are going to do things and other countries would be open to hear us if we cared to hear them. The US "we're going to do what we want" isn't popular and does not get people to play with us, so we're the bully of the playground they see and doesn't help our situation.

I mean, we could just be arrogant and try to run the world including people who want their own freedom and wait until some people fly planes into our buildings as a sign of their dislike for us...

An Indian national I know said 9/11 was justified. Of course I don't agree but I at least understand how someone could feel that way. We're not winning friends in the world being arrogant, and sitting back and being Mr. Moneybags and influencing people when they need us isn't the way to go. If India and China continue to grow in strength they could be influence and then who will listen to the has-been US? What if someone doesn't respect us like we didn't respect other parts of the world?

The problem I have with what you stated is the fact that this isn't an American problem. As you stated earlier in this thread, the USA has given more money and aid to the rest of the world. The USA is the most giving country in history. Without the US, China and India would not have grown. Part of all of our taxes has gone to help many many countries throughout the world. There is no reason that one cannot take pride that the US has helped so many countires and their people. Yes, there is a line between pride and arrogance, and maybe I am closer to arrogant side because of how giving the USA has been. Maybe the problem is with the rest of the world's people and countires, who are envious of the USA and the aid and support that we throw to countries without the blink of an eye.

[alexw]

not giving a shit how the world thinks about the US and then wondering why France and other nations don't like us, or respect our policies

It's one thing to care about what other nations/people think of the US. It's another to know that you're going to piss people off, but we've got to do the right thing anyways.

We're one of the only (if not the only) country that goes to war, blows the living hell out of everything, then takes the time and money to rebuild. But others only see the "Shock and Awe" on CNN.

I may not agree 100% with everything our country has done, but that rebuilding is the type of stuff that makes me proud.

[rwh11385]

The problem I have with what you stated is the fact that this isn't an American problem. Maybe the problem is with the rest of the world's people and countires, who are envious of the USA and the aid and support that we throw to countries without the blink of an eye.

That's again the "we can do no wrong, we are not at fault" logic.

I could care less what other countries want to do. They can do whatever they please. This isn't arrogant, it's that I'm not there and don't have to live in the situation. They should govern, etc. as they see fit.

I can't be the only who who could give a flying fuck about the rest of the world.

The problem is the choices we make impact other people, and their freedom. Just because we are huge doesn't give us any right to decide what other people do (well, within reason - atrocities, Germany in WWII, etc). We obviously feel we should be free to do what we want without another country saying shit, even when it's in other countries, yet don't give the same respect for others?

Sure, we help. But we also impress our belief systems on others, and are closeminded a lot.

We've sought out the lowest wages, and benefited, and I don't think we exploit nations as much as some protest, but we do have responsibility to help them as much as we use them. Ultimately, we need to think of the impact on them as well as us. Like I mentioned in other threads, there needs to be a shift in philosophy to considering everyone involved: customers, suppliers, employees, share holders, and the community, not just the profits/shareholders - and if we see business/the world in this way we can make business more friendly to others in the world, as well as our lives/country's decisions.

Because of globalization, the world and our partners are more and more important. We can't be the brat and expect good relationships. It is a problem for America if we act poorly and cannot work together with other nations.

The rest of the world is probably more annoyed by the viewed oppression over others and lack of concern for other people's views, freedoms, lives.

The United States is a huge factor in the world, and we need to remember that. Just look what happened to world FDI after 2001:

[rwh11385]

It's one thing to care about what other nations/people think of the US. It's another to know that you're going to piss people off, but we've got to do the right thing anyways.

We're one of the only (if not the only) country that goes to war, blows the living hell out of everything, then takes the time and money to rebuild. But others only see the "Shock and Awe" on CNN.

I may not agree 100% with everything our country has done, but that rebuilding is the type of stuff that makes me proud.

To do some things, for the most part that have to be done to make things right, you may piss some people off.

But the examples of arrogance in this thread can be multiplied time and again for other people in the country and with some of our decisions that were not necessary do not win us friends.

We may not need friends right now, but someday we may have wished we played nicer. And heh, if we did, maybe we'd have more on our team when we did need to take a step.

[trent]

That's again the "we can do no wrong, we are not at fault" logic.

The referenced statement was supposed to have a question mark on the end. Apologies -- I wasn't trying to make it a "statement."

The United States is a huge factor in the world, and we need to remember that. Just look what happened to world FDI after 2001:

I understand that the USA has a large responsibility in the world, I guess we can agree to disagree that I have no problem being so arrogant about the USA being the best country in the world. So, what happens if the USA is no longer arrogant and loses its dedicated drive. What happens? The entire world takes a shit because the USA is no longer arrogant and driven to be the best on the planet.

[rwh11385]

I understand that the USA has a large responsibility in the world, I guess we can agree to disagree that I have no problem being so arrogant about the USA being the best country in the world. So, what happens if the USA is no longer arrogant and loses its dedicated drive. What happens? The entire world takes a shit because the USA is no longer arrogant and driven to be the best on the planet.

The United States does not have to lose its pride and dedicated drive in order to respect other nations. We can work better with others if we appreciate their views and value them rather than ignore them. It's the same with countries as is with organizations and with people. Playing nice does not mean not competing.

[trent]

Playing nice does not mean not competing.

Business is business. More often that not the business man playing nice will lose out to somebody who is competing.

[rwh11385]

Business is business. More often that not the business man playing nice will lose out to somebody who is competing.

... long run. You may benefit from being "slick" in your first time dealing with someone, but a healthy mutual beneficial relationship with all players in business can lead to success.

Or at least what they are teaching in business strategy and ethics these days, and what some companies are basing their principles on. If you fuck over people without a heart you may not get as far as if you played fair and nice.

[Ral]

Here's what drives me nuts, and I'm seeing flashes of it in this thread (some more blatant that others- trent)

A few years ago some friends and I went to the Bahamas for Spring Break. I've never been more embarrassed to be an American than I was on that trip, looking around at the way these Americans (as a general rule, white privileged college kids) treated the locals. It was disgusting, and you could see the frustration and anger on the locals' faces. It's this kind of "I'm Amuurikan with lots of money, you should serve me" attitude that is why Americans are seen as they are abroad. That said, we donate billions to other nations in aid, military spending, etc. A family friend who worked in the Pentagon told me that, after 20 years as a Submarine officer, the thing that most surprised him when he got to the Pentagon was how much money we gave to other nations.

One of the big pushes within the Navy and Marine Corps is the idea of "No better friend, No worst enemy"- every special operations team, as well as (I believe- Franco90 would know better than I) every Marine Corps infantry unit rotates through a "village" in the Eastern California desert, complete with former Iraqi volunteers, to teach every infantryman the local culture, key words in the language, local politics, etc. No matter how justified we are in hitting a target, doing something militarily, etc., There will still be hard feelings. An 11 year old doesn't know the background behind why a building was hit, or why there's big, scary white people with black guns in his country shooting at the building next to him; he just knows an American plane killed his friends and people he knew, or those same people he knew just got shot by the Americans. He probably doesn't understand that it was self-defense on the Americans part and not random acts of violence (and it had better goddamn better be), only that people that look and talk like him that he knows just got killed by outsiders who won't leave. And more than likely, he will be brought up with hatred instilled in him by those intent on turning him (and the rest of his generation) against other tribe/sects, and the West.

Those of us in the military and government will have to tread very lightly to protect our interests and reverse some of the damage done to the rest of the world by us. At the same time, we'll have to deal with internal struggles: the widening gap between rich and poor, faltering (failing) education systems, an erosion of values that both UofM3 and Heeter both touched on, technology advancing faster than society can regulate/ethically deal with it (look up RFID for an example), an aging population, to name a few.

But, "There's nothing wrong with this country that can't be fixed by what's right with the country". In the meantime, thank the guys overseas on this board- It's much harder/more frustrating to be in the military now than at any time before in American history between budget cuts, the nature of the enemy being fought, etc. Hats off you you guys: I'll see you soon. Just gotta learn to fly planes first.