A dem's view of the welfare system=rant.

[apexede30]

My angry addition to this topic. I hate EBT. I hate it because I work management at a grocery store, and the people coming in and using EBT have often been driving lexuses, buying meats, crab legs, lobster, things I can only dream to have regularly. So basically they make my money, live comfortably, then get 300 dollars a month FREE because they think the government owes em somethin or what?

[chrisesteschiro]

I think we should cut out all those programs and let the government take care of roads, laws, and civil defence. If people need a helping hand, there are churches on every corner. This might not work in all circumstances but people would not go hungry. 4/5 people that use the system abuse the system. Same with disability. I know people who work their asses off at home but get disablility. There are so many people that once they get in they quit for good and never go back to work that the people who need it have a hard time getting it.

[2Big4a3Series]

I've been to that point of frustration too.. I remember once when I was down to my last $20 trying to get enough food until payday. The couple in front of me had steaks, and seafood, and all kinds of expensive things.. and I didn't think anything of it until they pulled out their book of food stamps!

Part of the problem is that the people who work in the government are just as lazy as the people who take the handouts. As long as the government workers get their paycheck every week, they aren't going to spend the time, effort, or trouble to determine whether or not a recipient has a legitmate claim. The only way that the government workers can't get away with pushing everyone through the system is when there is documentable proof that a recipient is making "enough" money.

As long as you are making money under the table, nobody is going to care. But as soon as you get a real job and contribute to the Social Security tax, a flag goes up in their system and they HAVE to deny you in order to keep their jobs. But otherwise if it's easier to qualify a recipient than it is to deny them, you can guess what happens.

[Ral]

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes
to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day
and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw
them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers, he said, 'I'm going to
reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just
$80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first
four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide
the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that
from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end
up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would
be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he
proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before And the first four continued to
drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to
compare their savings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $20', declared the sixth man. He pointed to
the tenth man,' but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right', exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too.
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'


'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I
got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything
at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down
and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of
them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax
system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from
a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they
just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas
where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

[Vedubin01]

Navy great read man! Thanks for sharing!

[Pinepig]

I see a whole bunch of fiscal conservatives being born in this thread.:p

[apexede30]

Clever little article, albeit slightly off the point. The poor ones are getting free beer. Lucky bastards. They need a beerstamp system soon.

[rwh11385]

Some would say, how do you think they got to the point not to have to shop there? A lot of the rich are the most stingiest/thriftiest people I have ever met.


just get there before they do, it is first come first served.

I think the concept of the rich is clouded by MTV. I can't find the link but many millionaires drive mid-price American SUVs, not Range Rovers or MB. Some live to show off their wealth, or at least their children do... but why dump money to flaunt it when it could be put to better use. That behavior is what keeps the lower class that want to pretend their not, in the lower class.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/10SecretsThatMillionairesKeep.aspx?page=1

2. "I shop at Wal-Mart."

Millionaires may not buy the 99-cent paper towels, but they know what it is to be frugal. About 80% say they spend with a middle-class mind-set, according to a 2007 survey of high-net-worth individuals, published by American Express and the Harrison Group. That means buying luxury items on sale, hunting for bargains and even clipping coupons.

...

In fact, most millionaires come from middle-class households, and roughly 70% have been wealthy for less than 15 years, according to the AmEx-Harrison survey. That said, there are plenty of millionaires who never check a price tag.

[eric (^__^)]

In fact, they might start drinking overseas
where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

You mean, where the beer is cheaper anyway?

The details we're missing here include exactly how many "number 10's" went overseas anyway, even though they just had two terms of fiscal "conservatism." Don't get me wrong, I can see the numbers just fine, I just like to look at the big picture. Even out the taxes, let capitalism have its day, but don't go believing that the rich don't want to get richer.

[eric (^__^)]

I think the concept of the rich is clouded by MTV. I can't find the link but many millionaires drive mid-price American SUVs, not Range Rovers or MB. Some live to show off their wealth, or at least their children do... but why dump money to flaunt it when it could be put to better use. That behavior is what keeps the lower class that want to pretend their not, in the lower class.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ep.aspx?page=1

Totally. The lower class has no positive role model. The rich will fight like hell to maintain the gulf between their lifestyle and the bottom of the totem pole. I think this defines our country, and change is going to take more than taxing the rich more to make the poor feel better.

America is a social clusterfuck, from where I sit. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The economy WILL level out, and relieve some stress, but things are just getting bad.

[2Big4a3Series]

It's easy to get mad at the people who abuse the system but I wonder if anyone ever asks 2 important questions- #1. Who profits from welfare? #2. Who really funds it?

The rich profit from it (because they own the industries that the poor consume from) so it isn't too often that you hear a rich person complain about the system. Secondly, after reading that passage about the beer drinkers, I would have to say that the rich funds most of the system also.

Those of us in the working middle class have a smaller take-home percentage every year but I'm sure that the 10% to 16% that the rich pay would have to be significantly more than the 26% to 34% that the working middle class pays. Apparently the rich are paying their "fair share" and then some.. even if they are getting a break.

If they really wanted to fix the welfare system, they would have done it already.

[chrisesteschiro]

If everyone paid the same percentage of taxes then everyone would appreciate what they have more. Our a country punishes sacrificing and working hard. I sacrifice going to school for 8 years while I look around and see everyone else having a great time. Then when I get out I am in so much debt that I cant imagine just to have a greater percentage of my money going to people who set back and play around. I am not saying that some people dont need a helping hand but when you see so many people just doing the minimum they can to get by and doing the most they can for personal satisfaction it pisses me off. After the breakdown some people are paying half of what they make in total taxes to keep people up who pay no taxes.

Cliff notes: Alot of people dont have money because they were born that way. They saved and worked their asses off. While some people were goofing around in school they were working. While some people are out partying some people are working. Then when you finally make it you give the money back to the people who laughed at you for working so hard.


END RANT

[Julien]

What is even worse is when someone sells you a panel that is described as good condition... and then via carbondating you find that it was damaged long before arrival. Fuck, it was already in bad shape when it left germany.

Now that is some welfare bullshit.

[2Big4a3Series]

when you see so many people just doing the minimum they can to get by and doing the most they can for personal satisfaction it pisses me off

Yeah, but in the long run I would have to say that I am glad that I am me and not one of them. Sure they have nicer cars, nicer clothes, and can buy more groceries but when I consider where they live and the kind of people that they have to deal with on a daily basis, I wouldn't trade places with them for anything in the world.

It's tough to pay the premiums for medical insurance but I welcome that (and being able to choose my doctor) in lieu of Medicaid where I have to go to some nasty gov't sponsored clinic where I would be forced to take whatever treatment they decide to give me. It's tough to make rent/mortgage payments but I'll do it to live in a safe community instead of living in a Section 8 property around neighbors who wait for me to leave so they can steal my stuff.

It looks like they are having a great time with the fancy cars and clothes and the endless supply of expensive groceries, but they can keep it. All of it is short lived and those of us who work for a living will always have a better quality of life as a result of it. People who have their priorities mixed up end up handing out happy face stickers at Walmart in their later years while the rest of us will retire rather comfortably.

[brandondan1]

Sure, stricter rules need to be set in place when people are out driving new BMWs yet using food stamps at the market, but I don't see how some of you are totally against welfare. As said earlier, it promotes kindness in our society when we help out the less fortunate, and really helps a lot of people to become productive in society (like those who can't afford college without financial aid).

I hear that government shouldn't be "forcing" us to give money, but as some of the convservatives have said "the rich are some of the stingiest people, they don't 'waste' money etc." What makes you think that they would give money to a cause they deem unworthy (like giving to a single mother who "could" spend it on cigarettes.)

Why should schools in rich areas that have more money they can ever dream of, use it to build a football stadium better than an NFL team's, when there are poor schools who don't have up to date textbooks etc, that will only continue the cycle of being uneducated, poor, etc?

People will always find a way to abuse ANY system, whether you're letting big business run rampant or enforcing social policies. It's just human nature. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who benefit from them in a legitimate way.