A True American!

[Schneider325]

i agree sticking in afganistan would have been the wiser choice. but we have already crossed that bridge. now we are in iraq, and we need to finish what we started. and now it looks like we are gonna be pulling out of iraq weather we are finished or not. to me it looks kinda wishy washy.

But, we are not pulling out of Iraq. I mentioned earlier the date is set for 2012, that isn't pulling out of Iraq. It is finishing the job!

Our objective is close to being done, this statement has been in affect since the siege (I haven't read anything on this, but I do not think I am wrong here).

Obama used the line that we would pull out immediately during his campaign. It was just a way to get elected, he is not doing this now. He is following what intelligents is telling him, and that is 2012. Conservitives/Rebulicans around the world approve of this decision that Obama is taking. 1+ for that. The date would of been the same under a McCain admin.

i agree with the current administration needed to actr fast, they fed off the revengeful and nationalistic feeling of the people, going to war based more off of feelings than reason.

Again, we dont have all the variables to look at like the pentegon did.

i agree with all your points except for the trying to help the world when we can barely even help ourselfs

-Decisions to keep interests rates at an all time low, alowing people to borrow more than they can.
-Banning of off sour oil
-Not building any nuclear power plants in over 8 years
-increasing the minimume wage

Anyone please feel free to add to this list!!!

If this is what you are talking about, you are correct. Now we need to look at who made these decisions that has cause us to barely being able to help ourselves.

[mikegar]

Actually you are wrong. In a philosophy class you would learn that looking at all cultures throughout the world, there are standards that can be seen for every group.

This link looks to be useful: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

If you want to discuss this further, let me know and I will provide information from my text book.

Now as far as agendas are conserned, you are probably right! There are mistakes in war, but I bet oil had to do with some of the decision making as far as invading iraq. there is no question about that.

Also, one could argue due to the mis information and current tyranny in the US, the administration had to act fast in order to gain approval. Hopefully that isn't the case, it looks like sticking to afganistan would of been a wiser choice, dealing with Iraq later.

Then again, none of us have all the variables the pentagon had to look at.

i agree sticking in afganistan would have been the wiser choice. but we have already crossed that bridge. now we are in iraq, and we need to finish what we started. and now it looks like we are gonna be pulling out of iraq weather we are finished or not. to me it looks kinda wishy washy. i agree with the current administration needed to actr fast, they fed off the revengeful and nationalistic feeling of the people, going to war based more off of feelings than reason. i agree with all your points except for the trying to help the world when we can barely even help ourselfs.

[Schneider325]

its kinda stupid to believe that they arent already mixed up. our international affairs are shaped by nationalistic intrests, weather they are to prevent potential disasters in the us, or to insure our nationalistic superiority

True
The best defense is a good offense
Good point

[Schneider325]

no a pursuit of a universial moral standard means nothing to me when it is just a cover for a countrys real agenda. and with the diversity in the world a universial moral standard is kinda silly. different groups have different views on moral standards

Actually you are wrong. In a philosophy class you would learn that looking at all cultures throughout the world, there are standards that can be seen for every group.

This link looks to be useful: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

If you want to discuss this further, let me know and I will provide information from my text book.

Now as far as agendas are conserned, you are probably right! There are mistakes in war, but I bet oil had to do with some of the decision making as far as invading iraq. there is no question about that.

Also, one could argue due to the mis information and current tyranny in the US, the administration had to act fast in order to gain approval. Hopefully that isn't the case, it looks like sticking to afganistan would of been a wiser choice, dealing with Iraq later.

Then again, none of us have all the variables the pentagon had to look at.

[mikegar]

The article is old, but nothing has changed:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa060702a.htm

If you want to talk about national problems/issues we can, but to mix that with military and international affairs is plain stupidity.

its kinda stupid to believe that they arent already mixed up. our international affairs are shaped by nationalistic intrests, weather they are to prevent potential disasters in the us, or to insure our nationalistic superiority

[mikegar]

no a pursuit of a universial moral standard means nothing to me when it is just a cover for a countrys real agenda. and with the diversity in the world a universial moral standard is kinda silly. different groups have different views on moral standards

[Schneider325]

The article is old, but nothing has changed:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa060702a.htm

If you want to talk about national problems/issues we can, but to mix that with military and international affairs is plain stupidity.

[Schneider325]

What does it matter what the exact reason is? There are many reasons. Does right over wrong and the pursuit of universal moral standard mean anything to you? How is that being fucked up, at all?


We can police ourselves. What if we WERN'T policing ourselves? Then there would be real problems. Of course things could get better though. There are many problems with the current drug war and also in the pharmaceutical world. Can you agree with this? Us facing these issues doesn't mean we have to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, that would be just stupid.

I think the united states is capable of multitasking.. hopefully it still is...

[mikegar]

and it doesnt matter if they are idiots killing other idiots, they are still americans.

[mikegar]

im talking about how president elect wants to reduce troops in iraq and focus on pakistan. what i have seen of this war on terror it has been all over the place, first we were looking for osama bin laden, then there were the weapons of mass distruction, which werent there. i mean its been pretty fuct from the begining. as far as policing the world,, how are we going to police the world if we cant even police our own country?

[Schneider325]

the ill prepardness i am talking about is the no clear objective of the war. and once we did get ahold of things the president elect wants to go and shake shit up again. since there were more deaths in obamas senate state than in iraq shouldnt we be focusing on that instead of freeing other people? id rather see the us get its shit together before it helps to get other countries shit together.

No clear Objective?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html

Obama wants to shake shit up again?

He was telling voters he would get out of Iraq ASAP. People with some intelligents, I think, knocked some sense into him. The date is now set for 2012, or something like that. Maybe you were talking about afganistane (sp)? I'm no expert on world history, but I'm pretty sure most historians would agree that blowing that damn country off the face of the planet would be one of the biggest achievements of mankind. There has been nothing but trouble from those groups of people residing there throughout history.

focus more on idiots killing other people in the US rather than policing what is right in the world?

Ya, your right. Lets create a militia more funded than our military and give Obama the authority over it. :up:

[mikegar]

Ya, probably every country or damn close to it. We have plans for most plausible situations.

Our current situation could never be mistaken for prepared? Don't get me wrong, maybe we should of waiting on going into Iraq as soon as we did, and possible concentrated on Iran more. But hey, there are mistakes in war.

Other than that, I'm not sure what ill preparedness you are talking about. There were more deaths in Obamas senate state than there was in Iraq during the past 6 months..

the ill prepardness i am talking about is the no clear objective of the war. and once we did get ahold of things the president elect wants to go and shake shit up again. since there were more deaths in obamas senate state than in iraq shouldnt we be focusing on that instead of freeing other people? id rather see the us get its shit together before it helps to get other countries shit together.

[Schneider325]

really now? EVERY country. im sure the us has plan to invade all the superpowers and a majority of the other ones. but i wouldnt think that the us would have plans for EVERY country. and as far a being prepared, just having plans for countries isnt enough. with wars against groups of people that dont belong to a particular country. i mean come on our current war situation could never be mistaken for prepared.

Ya, probably every country or damn close to it. We have plans for most plausible situations.

Our current situation could never be mistaken for prepared? Don't get me wrong, maybe we should of waiting on going into Iraq as soon as we did, and possible concentrated on Iran more. But hey, there are mistakes in war.

Other than that, I'm not sure what ill preparedness you are talking about. There were more deaths in Obamas senate state than there was in Iraq during the past 6 months..

[Schneider325]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9LwUbFy--A

[Ferdinand]

I would just encourage all of you to refrain from using ad hominem attacks in your arguments. They might feel good, but they ultimately degrade the level of the discussion...

Careful now, all the homophobes on this forum will think you're talking about them.