Blackwater

[decay]

Look into the m16a1 to a2, the full auto mode was replaced with triple burst instead of training the troops how to shoot/conserve ammo on full auto weapons.

"instead of training" is not why they did that.

ever see a ma-deuce go runaway? you can't break the links when your ammo comes from a magazine.

[BigWaveDave]

"instead of training" is not why they did that.

ever see a ma-deuce go runaway? you can't break the links when your ammo comes from a magazine.

Plus they did it to conserve ammo after/during Vietnam. You can't train the whole military force how to be precision sharpshooters. That would cost too much to much time. Plus, a 3 round burst is more effective in the fact that the rise of the barrel is less and you can focus on your target between burst.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I am simply making the implication that our military has been "detuned" to the point that a well financed bunch of ex-US military guys can further train and develop a more viable force.

It's like gangs sending their guys into the military so they can come back to the hood and pass the knowledge on to the low level street thugs.

[Hallen]

"instead of training" is not why they did that.

ever see a ma-deuce go runaway? you can't break the links when your ammo comes from a magazine.

Yeah, the old M16 did have a way of going full auto on you if you got some gunk down inside the receiver. I have had it happen... fortunately with just blanks in the weapon. The A2 is really out of the picture now anyway. We were trained the proper way to use full auto. Only the morons in the movies don't know how to use it. Also, if you really wanted to hit something specific, you always used semi-auto. The M16 bucks around too much in full auto to be effective for anything but suppression (which is what it was designed for). And, with a 30 round clip, you would just waste ammo for the most part.

As far as the training goes, it is still the best in the world on many levels. The elite forces that we do have are top notch. Our general infantry is very well trained and our support organizations are the best around. That is not a blanket statement saying that things couldn't be improved or that everything is perfect, it isn't. But show me anything that is.

Congress does control these forces because they control the budget strings. It was Congress that forced their use for the most part anyway because they would not allow increased numbers in the regular military. There are specialties that the regular military does not have and these types of troops can fill that roll. I don't really like it much, but it can make sense. The costs are probably not out of line. Remember, we didn't pay for their training, we don't pay for their benefits, and we won't be paying their retirement. All of those costs have to be considered when you bring in more active military people.

I for one will not second guess what happened in a tense, combat situation. I will let the facts rule and leave the supposition and innuendo to the media; it is what they do best.

[Hallen]

I am simply making the implication that our military has been "detuned" to the point that a well financed bunch of ex-US military guys can further train and develop a more viable force.

It's like gangs sending their guys into the military so they can come back to the hood and pass the knowledge on to the low level street thugs.

Imply what you want, but at the end of the day, it's just your opinion. Our military isn't perfect. But if you have not had the training, if you haven't walked the walk, if you haven't seen the full scope of training done, then you are just making stuff up.

I think it is just a simple matter of long-term finances and expediency that drives their use right now, not a general de-tuning.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Imply what you want, but at the end of the day, it's just your opinion. Our military isn't perfect. But if you have not had the training, if you haven't walked the walk, if you haven't seen the full scope of training done, then you are just making stuff up.

I think it is just a simple matter of long-term finances and expediency that drives their use right now, not a general de-tuning.

I can respect your opinion as well.

[Farbin Kaiber]

How can what once was the #1 Superpower of the Earth, have private entities running around with superior training, weapons, and at the end of the day still be under the Gvt's thumb but without the restrictions or ramifications of action?

(using their training, weapons development, etc.)

They are there "drafting" every special trained soldier with a walk slip.

[tofubento]

Well, with the sad state of our US Millitary training, it was only a matter of time til Co.'s came to do the work. Look into the m16a1 to a2, the full auto mode was replaced with triple burst instead of training the troops how to shoot/conserve ammo on full auto weapons.


And, after the Iraq drama they stirred up, they have become much more discreet.

I might be a civillian but I am going to disagree with you on that.

I dont care the caliber, fully auto is a waste of ammo, unless the weapon is purpose built for auto...ie heavier and compensators in the gun to keep the barrel from travelling to far from target.Even with all those mods, its still a waste, full auto is meant to just keep the enemies head down.

The rifles,of today, where switched over to 3 round, not due to waste of ammo, but for accuracy. You have to remember the m4/16 was made the primary battle rifle due to the following :

1. soldier can carry more rounds vs older rifles
2. the more rounds you can carry, the more you can put down range.
3. most fire fights happen with in 200 yrd range

Why have an entire squad with supression rifles, when you have at least 1 - 2 SAWs and fire support from vehicles? ie. see ma-deuce.

Have you ever seen the footage of US troops in a fire fight? You seldom see them on 3 round as it is.


As far as PRIVATE SECURITY companies not being held accountable for what they do, it depends on the location they are at.

Do you think there are many laws in a warzone?

PMCs are a rather new/old thing to warfare...the modern battlefield hasnt really seen "mercs" for close to over 200years. So currently there are no laws or guidelines for them to follow. They are still considered civvies, but not at the same time.

When PMCs are used in a non-warfare scenario they are subject to the laws of the land. Unless given special treatment, as seen during katrina, by the goverment...ie think old western movie where joe blow is deputised to help in the fight.

*** though I fully disagree with what blackwater did during Katrina, they did the job proper and fully obeyed the laws of the land/contract ***

Something else to add...

What service do you think has better training?

Marines
ARMY
Police

No matter your answer, the PMC companies pull from all 3 of those listed as well as other branches.

Its not uncommon to see a exSeal shoulder to shoulder in an SUV with a former Police officer.

[mrsleeve]

. Union's have become sickening too.

watch your tounge , you know not what you speak of when it comes to the trades.

On topic

I dont like the fact that they are a private force that dose not answer the the people, but this is not the first organization of its kind anyone remember the french foreign legion????

Hell I really dont know enough about them to make a decision one way or another

[tofubento]

watch your tounge , you know not what you speak of when it comes to the trades.

On topic

I dont like the fact that they are a private force that dose not answer the the people, but this is not the first organization of its kind anyone remember the french foreign legion????

Hell I really dont know enough about them to make a decision one way or another

French forieng legion is a military organization that has always been run by the goverment...it was originally for criminals. Please explain how it didnt answer to its own people? In fact its still one of the best military units out there, and it still exsists to this day. Best way to get a French citizenship and a clean record!

Some unions are rubbish...ie auto makers, but alot work great. A good friend of mine is a Union member, pipefitter, great bennies, and they still enable older workers to use those years of experience! I think its great what the good ones ( unions ) do! Look at most non union jobs, after X years they kick you to the curb...but why do that? The person your kicking to the curb might have 20,30,40+ years of working in the company and will have a vast amount of knowledge to lend to people/company on a moments notice.

Older people have so much information and experience(s) that us younger people can benifit from if we only ask and listen.

[Collin]

...is scary. But my buddy says they pay really well. Only way they could get him back into Iraq.

[tofubento]

...is scary. But my buddy says they pay really well. Only way they could get him back into Iraq.

Yup, alot of interesting docs have been made on the large amount of PMCs over there. SouthAfrican PMCs for the win!!!...20 years ago...

[mrsleeve]

French forieng legion is a military organization that has always been run by the goverment...it was originally for criminals. Please explain how it didnt answer to its own people? In fact its still one of the best military units out there, and it still exsists to this day. Best way to get a French citizenship and a clean record!

Some unions are rubbish...ie auto makers, but alot work great. A good friend of mine is a Union member, pipefitter, great bennies, and they still enable older workers to use those years of experience! I think its great what the good ones ( unions ) do! Look at most non union jobs, after X years they kick you to the curb...but why do that? The person your kicking to the curb might have 20,30,40+ years of working in the company and will have a vast amount of knowledge to lend to people/company on a moments notice.

Older people have so much information and experience(s) that us younger people can benifit from if we only ask and listen.

No I was not saying the legion dose not answer to the people (that was a black water comment) I was drawing a comparison of the 2 private military groups an that blackwater is not a new idea in modern times. Yes I am aware that the Legion is one of the finest military units in the world an still are around to day.

Thanks for the support, too many people base all the union opinions on the UAW which has gotten greedy an slit its own throat.
Nearly everything in all the trades I have learned from guys that were about to retire or have come out of retirement for the hell of it, and I absorbed every thing I could from these guys, so I know tricks an and give tips to guys that have been doing things longer than I have been and its great.

[tofubento]

My misunderstanding! Sorry about that.

[Joey Link]

If I understand it right...

They are a paramilitary force under the arm of the president yet NOT controllable in any way by congress. READ: private army NOT answerable to the people, in legal, criminal, civil or whatever terms.

This is how I feel as well.