Another thing Sleeve and I probably agree on...

[frankenbeemer]

Please quote things that leave out conjecture.

Why? It's not my conjecture, it's not even the point.

[z31maniac]

that same year due to sharply reduced cattle unit grazing rights designed to decimate his cattle business

Please quote things that leave out conjecture.

[frankenbeemer]

:crickets:

Just what I expected.

The statutes in Nevada may actually favor embattled cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and his cattle business in Clark County Nevada,where his ranch is located just Northeast of Las Vegas. The BLM seems to realize this based on an earlier case BLM lost which they have under appeal against a now deceased Nye County,Nevada cattle rancher by the name of Wayne Hage.
Mr. Hage signed his 1993 BLM agreement subject to an amended statement which Hage attached which confirmed his entrenched water and grazing tights under Nevada law. Mr. Bundy did not sign his BLM agreement that same year due to sharply reduced cattle unit grazing rights designed to decimate his cattle business, and stopped paying grazing fees to the government.
Even though continuing to graze since rejecting his 1993 renewal contract permit , Mr. Bundy has never since paid grazing fees which he most likely does not even owe to BLM based of the success of the Hage case against BLM.

I don't know if it's factual, do you have evidence he did sign?

[frankenbeemer]

The 2nd amendment was not created so that you can point a gun at federal agents who are enforcing a court order. Fail.

In his influential Commentaries on the Constitution, Joseph Story, certainly no friend of Anti-Federalism, emphasized the "importance" of the Second Amendment. He went on to describe the militia as the "natural defence of a free country" not only "against sudden foreign invasions" and "domestic insurrections," with which one might well expect a Federalist to be concerned, but also against "domestic usurpations of power by rulers.""The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered," Story wrote, "as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power by rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."

Because legal does not necessarily mean moral or ethical (see Dred Scott decision). I don't know whether the actions of the BLM were ethical or not, and I don't know Cliven Bundy. Charismatic scofflaw or legitimate victim of usurpation? I'm guessing somewhere in between.

[z31maniac]

Your just pissed off you have seen the the true purpose of the 2ed amendment used successfully and peaceably.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, if there were no arms the govt would have run rough shod over all of them there long ago and the current out come would not be as harmonious as it was too this point ...... A few people with guns of their own forced the armed agents of the state to take pause and reconsider its actions. This is a real life example of why firearms laying in the safes and closets and on the hips of the people are the greatest check on governmental over reach of all, and why the right "shall not be infringed"

Dude, seriously.

You're so wrapped up in your own agenda you just completely ignore things.

Like somehow you are trying to turn this into a 2nd Amendment issue. I'm honest to god starting to wonder if you are all there.

[BraveUlysses]

Your just pissed off you have seen the the true purpose of the 2ed amendment used successfully and peaceably.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, if there were no arms the govt would have run rough shod over all of them there long ago and the current out come would not be as harmonious as it was too this point ...... A few people with guns of their own forced the armed agents of the state to take pause and reconsider its actions. This is a real life example of why firearms laying in the safes and closets and on the hips of the people are the greatest check on governmental over reach of all, and why the right "shall not be infringed"

The 2nd amendment was not created so that you can point a gun at federal agents who are enforcing a court order. Fail.

But it's good to know you sympathize with and rationalize for gun owners who break the law and threaten people with their weapons, but its okay for cops to shoot kids with airsoft guns.

^

Like I said Muzzle up or Muzzle down........................................ Just turning around does not make it a threat. But I cant fault the cops for their actions either, this is one of those instances where it SHOULD NOT have gone the way it did, but you cant fault the reaction based on what we know and after seeing the toy....

[CorvallisBMW]

Your just pissed off you have seen the the true purpose of the 2ed amendment used successfully and peaceably.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, if there were no arms the govt would have run rough shod over all of them there long ago and the current out come would not be as harmonious as it was too this point ...... A few people with guns of their own forced the armed agents of the state to take pause and reconsider its actions. This is a real life example of why firearms laying in the safes and closets and on the hips of the people are the greatest check on governmental over reach of all, and why the right "shall not be infringed"

I disagree. The "true purpose" of the 2nd amendment is not:

1) to allow people with guns to ignore the law
2) to allow people with guns to freeload off government land
3) to allow people with guns to ignore court orders
4) to allow people with guns to not pay their taxes
5) to allow people with guns to deny the existence or authority of the Federal Government

You imply that the government would have "run rough shod over all of them". I don't know what you call complying with a federal court order in Montana, but here it's not called that. It's called the Law. The government has a DUTY to enforce the law, and a DUTY to enforce court orders pending from said laws. Confiscation of those cattle as payment for his outstanding debts was court-ordered and 100% within the confines of not only the law, but also of the grazing contracts that Mr Bundy himself signed.

If I refused to pay my taxes for 30 years, and one day the IRS showed up at my door to confiscate my house, do you think I'd be allowed to just point a gun in their face and get away with it? HELL NO. The SWAT team would be there in minutes and I'd go to prison for years. Again, why does this cocksucker get to ignore the laws?

[mrsleeve]

Your just pissed off you have seen the the true purpose of the 2ed amendment used successfully and peaceably.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, if there were no arms the govt would have run rough shod over all of them there long ago and the current out come would not be as harmonious as it was too this point ...... A few people with guns of their own forced the armed agents of the state to take pause and reconsider its actions. This is a real life example of why firearms laying in the safes and closets and on the hips of the people are the greatest check on governmental over reach of all, and why the right "shall not be infringed"

[CorvallisBMW]

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/253015...under-scrutiny

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/253021...family-history

So he's a thief and a liar. Shocking.

[assoutE12]

So he thinks he shouldn't have to pay anything to raise cattle on government owned land? That is bullshit. my family owns thousands of acres and upwards of 500 head of cattle, much of it bordered army core land, there is a reason there is a fence between that land and our pasture, because it's not my fucking land.

[BraveUlysses]

:crickets:

Just what I expected.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutiny

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25302186/an-abbreviated-look-at-rancher-cliven-bundys-family-history

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

[CorvallisBMW]

I'm still waiting for even 1 single rational argument as to why this man doesn't owe the taxes and fees that he agreed to pay and that he has been ordered to pay by multiple court rulings.

:crickets:

Just what I expected.

[frankenbeemer]

Then the onus is on you to prove that he didn't. Every news media outlet has reported on this, the courts have ruled on it multiple times, it's been beaten to death. Of course he signed the contract, that's where the grazing fees were outlined

But let's play fantasy land for a while, OK? Say he didn't sign a contract. That means he's still illegally grazing his cattle on land that doesn't belong to him, without a contract... is that any better?

I'm still waiting for even 1 single rational argument as to why this man doesn't owe the taxes and fees that he agreed to pay and that he has been ordered to pay by multiple court rulings.

You made the claim, not me. Just trying to keep it factual.

[CorvallisBMW]

Do you have a source that says he signed the contract? It has been claimed he didn't.

Then the onus is on you to prove that he didn't. Every news media outlet has reported on this, the courts have ruled on it multiple times, it's been beaten to death. Of course he signed the contract, that's where the grazing fees were outlined

But let's play fantasy land for a while, OK? Say he didn't sign a contract. That means he's still illegally grazing his cattle on land that doesn't belong to him, without a contract... is that any better?

I'm still waiting for even 1 single rational argument as to why this man doesn't owe the taxes and fees that he agreed to pay and that he has been ordered to pay by multiple court rulings.

[frankenbeemer]

lots of us that us public land in the west are getting tired of seeing gates closed, roads destroyed at cretin points, and integrations by federal employees about what or why we are where we are. We are sick and tired of long held traditions being halted and discontinued on bureaucratic whims from DC or form appointed officials that have no clue about the west. We are just told you dont need to be there so screw off. Not to mention the fed have been buying up lots and lots more land in the western states the last few years at prices that are hard for citizens to compete with

I have issues with not paying the grazing fee, I was considering buying a place with a 15k ac NFS lease and it was about 800 a year. BUT if you decided to not renew it, or your payment gets lost in the mail and is not in on time or any little thing where they could have reason to not renew you, then there was never the option to go back latter and pick it back up.

Quoted for what seem to be amusing autocorrects. Also note that the BLM is an issue, it's not a simple case of larceny.