Another thing Sleeve and I probably agree on...

[CorvallisBMW]

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

Do you sustain your life off nothing but air? Big Ag or not, all food, even the expensive boutique organic fair-trade stuff, comes from farms and ranches.

I don't think the government was taking his livelihood at all. He had every opportunity, for 20+ years, to simply pull his cattle back on to his own land. He chose not to. Why is anyone surprised by any of this?

If he had been letting his cattle illegally graze on his neighbors land, and that land was privately owned by another rancher, would all these right-wing fanatics still have supported him in his efforts to steal land rights that didn't belong to him?

[einhander]

then you must like to go hungry then, I am fairly sure its kinda hard to have a job such as yours and tend to growing and raising your ALL of your own food needs, in either hong kong or SoCal.

That and if this is Clark County Owned land, then why are the feds involved anyway??? I have been too busy lately to really keep up with this hence my earlier cornfuzzelment with a similar goings on.

I buy from the local wet market in HK. I source what I can from organic farms in Japan. In LA I buy from the farmers market: meat and produce anyway.

Big farms are the largest welfare recipients on the planet, keep food prices needlessly high, feed us genetically modified crap, and ensure poverty for millions around the world.

Confuzzlement. I like that. Will use it at work.

[mrsleeve]

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

then you must like to go hungry then, I am fairly sure its kinda hard to have a job such as yours and tend to growing and raising your ALL of your own food needs, in either hong kong or SoCal.

That and if this is Clark County Owned land, then why are the feds involved anyway??? I have been too busy lately to really keep up with this hence my earlier cornfuzzelment with a similar goings on.

[einhander]

I see is guy who refused to pay is taxes or fees for 20 years, has ignored court orders, has broken and continues to break the law, and a bunch of "patriots" coming to support him in his efforts to ignore and undermine the laws of the very country they claim to love and support.

I hope they throw the fucktard in jail. Why should I have to pay taxes but not him? If he's going to use public land for personal profit, he should be paying for it. Simple as that. If he's refusing to abide by the law and the courts, he should have his assets seized and be put in prison. No one should be above the law just because they have a bunch of gun-toting buddies on horses.

This sets up a very dangerous precedent. It says that if you've got enough crazy fucking gun buddies, you don't have to obey the law. Just round up all your friends, point your guns at the government and you can ignore the law all you want.

We have laws for a reason, and without them we're nothing but a failed state. There's no reason whatsoever that this guy shouldn't have to abide by the same laws that you, I, or anyone else would have to in the same situation. Fuck him. Don't like the law? Call your senator. Call your congressman, Vote, Move, I don't care what you do, but it's the law. You don't get to just ignore it for 20 years and profit off the public's assets, then threaten to kill dozens, if not hundreds, of people to keep it that way.

I agree with you on almost all points.

The only reason I support what these people did is because they stopped the government from taking his livelihood. I'm no friend to ranchers or farmers, but if they government is owed money then they have an obligation to pursue it through the courts. The government doesn't tend to make up tax obligations for individuals, so I reckon old Cliven does owe something.

[CorvallisBMW]

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-...not-being-told

If that's true, it would be a revelation. A super fucked-up one too. And frankly I wouldn't past anyone in Congress to try something just like that.

[Farbin Kaiber]

To be honest, I'd like to have seen an escrow account holding ALL the grazing fees due since 1993 that the Cliven Bundy & Co. have been stuffing away. At least that would show the action of placing the money as a sign of good faith that they truly did/do intend to pay their fees to either the State of Nevada, or Clark County as they claim. Otherwise, I do see a bit of the 'welfare rancher' or freeloader context actually sticking.

[Dozyproductions]

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told

[CorvallisBMW]

I see is guy who refused to pay is taxes or fees for 20 years, has ignored court orders, has broken and continues to break the law, and a bunch of "patriots" coming to support him in his efforts to ignore and undermine the laws of the very country they claim to love and support.

I hope they throw the fucktard in jail. Why should I have to pay taxes but not him? If he's going to use public land for personal profit, he should be paying for it. Simple as that. If he's refusing to abide by the law and the courts, he should have his assets seized and be put in prison. No one should be above the law just because they have a bunch of gun-toting buddies on horses.

This sets up a very dangerous precedent. It says that if you've got enough crazy fucking gun buddies, you don't have to obey the law. Just round up all your friends, point your guns at the government and you can ignore the law all you want.

We have laws for a reason, and without them we're nothing but a failed state. There's no reason whatsoever that this guy shouldn't have to abide by the same laws that you, I, or anyone else would have to in the same situation. Fuck him. Don't like the law? Call your senator. Call your congressman, Vote, Move, I don't care what you do, but it's the law. You don't get to just ignore it for 20 years and profit off the public's assets, then threaten to kill dozens, if not hundreds, of people to keep it that way.

[einhander]

words

Weakest. Contract. Ever.

[Farbin Kaiber]

I'm sure the link will be debated. I'm posting it anyway, we shall see what happens I guess.

http://benswann.com/exclusive-sources-inside-the-blm-and-las-vegas-metro-say-feds-are-planning-a-raid-on-bundy-home/

[mrsleeve]

This is the news story I saw the other night and is a very very similar story I had confused with the current one, Long time battle with the feds and the BLM about grazing rights in NV but not about the one this thread. 25 year battle with the feds and were awarded 14 mil that still has not been paid......

Sorry for the confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoX_DhFfMfk

[Keith M]

Never mind

[Farbin Kaiber]

While I understand what you are saying, I was just posting an angle I haven't heard spoken of here.

Just for reference, how many people in this thread have actually dealt with BLM because their property ajoins BLM controlled land?

[BraveUlysses]

I see you've stepped up your game and now using facebook quotes to bolster bad arguments.

[Farbin Kaiber]

Why Clive Bundy isn't WRONG.
There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher's grazing permit it says the following: "You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due." The "mandatory" terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this "contract" agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher's permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow - - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are "suspended," but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of "suspended" AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.
-Kena Lytle Gloeckner