ABS Delete Any one runs without ABS

[MatRacer]

Bringing this thread back to life!

Presently "building" a 325i 1989 with a S50. The goal is to get a fun car that car be daily driven, but also tracked. It had functionnal ABS before swap. Big brakes is on the list, but wont come this year.

My plan for this year was deleting ABS + addition of Stainless Steel Braided Brake Hoses (to replace old dryed out rubber hose) since my last tracked car was a jetta MK2 without ABS. I wasn't having any problem with the absence of ABS.

However, after reading all this thread and the E30thech link, I'm leaning toward: keeping ABS + addition of Stainless Steel Braided Brake Hoses + brake bias valve (as this one http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/E30-brakes/wwvalve.html).

I will be able to try ABS and decide if I want to keep it or not...

What you guy think?

One question for Massive Lee: From your last post(#65) "Honestly, I very rarely hit the ABS", I can read that you still have ABS on your car. Is this on your E30? If yes, I guest that it is not as dangerous as stated in post 40... Not trying to pick on you, just trying to make my car as good an safe as possible for its purpose... within my budget...

[lifeiskaos]

Simply ditch the OEM fixed pressure limiting valve and replace by an adjustable one, still in the engine bay. That can increase rear hydraulic pressure by up to 35%. The knee on the OEM valve is located at 25bar (400psi)

But if you indeed run a heavier motor in the front, then I doubt you need that much more rear brakes.Just because the increased weight of the front axle will allow you to press more on the brake pedal before front wheels lock-up. More pressure at the front equals more pressure at the rear.

Yeah I plan on getting an adjustable bias valve. I do indeed run an m52, but I've definitely lost weight up front. I've got zero AC/heater components, including the huge hvac box behind the dash. Also, no power steering or insulation on either side of the firewall. I'm about to install my carbon fiber hood as well, so I think I've more than made up for the ~50lb of added engine weight.

The front brakes definitely lock up much too easy. I can't stop nearly as fast as my other stock e30, and I've yet to be able to lock up the rear tires.

[Massive Lee]

...I have an e30 with S52 motor and have found that with this car it is way to easy to lock up the front tires...

With the added weight on the front of the car, it is strange you still lock the front wheels and not the rear too. Please let us know what type of pads you use at each end. And what suspension you run. Maybe you need to increase rear bias, or rear pad grip.

Honestly, I very rarely hit the ABS and I brake very hard and usually on the last marker. So maybe the problem is with drivers not modulating their brakes enough.

[gman325is]

ABS, is the way to go. I am an Instructor for all the local car clubs in our area and have lots of track experience. I have an e30 with S52 motor and have found that with this car it is way to easy to lock up the front tires, with late braking into the turns. My ABS has not been working since I did the engine swap(not wired properly) and I plan to fix that as soon as possible.

[Massive Lee]

I need to get more power to the rear brakes.

Simply ditch the OEM fixed pressure limiting valve and replace by an adjustable one, still in the engine bay. That can increase rear hydraulic pressure by up to 35%. The knee on the OEM valve is located at 25bar (400psi)

But if you indeed run a heavier motor in the front, then I doubt you need that much more rear brakes.Just because the increased weight of the front axle will allow you to press more on the brake pedal before front wheels lock-up. More pressure at the front equals more pressure at the rear.

[lifeiskaos]

Fix your brakes.

What is there to fix? I'm happy without ABS and I can stop much faster than I've ever needed to in an emergency situation (in my black e30).

My alpine m52 e30 has a 735 master with non ABS brake lines and it's quite easy to lock up the front tires. I need to get more power to the rear brakes.

[whowhatwhere]

What does your "abs delete unit" look like?

[castros]

If your abs works good, keep it but if it does'nt work rip it out. We sell an abs delete unit if your interested.

[RangerGress]

My ABS has been deleted for 2 years. I tried to lock my brakes one time from ~50mph. Stomped with all my might and just stopped. Didn't lock any of the tires. Might be because my car is light and has decent tires, but still. I've never locked any wheels, even in the rain.

Fix your brakes.

Is anyone running a more aggressive pad in the rear to compensate?

Only me.

The link below is to an interesting thread at e30tech. It explains the behavior mentioned by the Pro3 guy in this thread, and also some weird braking behavior I was occasionally experiencing at Road Atlanta turn 3. Just before sliding off the track into the grass.

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89726&highlight=lock

[etxxz]

^ good stuff Jlevie. Its a widely known issue with the e30 rear brakes, is anyone running a more aggressive pad in the rear to compensate?

[jlevie]

I've driven my Spec E30 with and without ABS on Spec tires and race slicks. The stock brakes on an E30 with race pads are more than enough to lock up a wheel with any tire you can fit in the fender wells. At the beginning of a race, a good driver can hold threshold braking w/o ABS, but as you tire the chances of locking up a wheel and flat spotting a tire increase.

In a Spec E30 configuration the rear brakes aren't as effective as they could be be. So my preferred technique is to get into the brakes just hard enough for the front ABS to engage, but not quite enough to trip the rears.

[gobuffs]

I built my car without ABS. At ofest last year I checked up and slightly flatspotted them at turns 1 and 3 at the start of a race. Had a vibration, and eventually the driver front delaminated and took out the bumper, fender and rocker. Added E36 ABS over the winter. In the few races I have done I have A LOT more confidence in the braking zones. I don't coast as much going into the corner due to more trust in not flatspotting the tires. Readily made me a few seconds faster. I try not to get into the ABS but I will admit I do get into it at times. Still learning how to brake the best. I love the ABS on my car.

[Fair!]

Indeed. And you are 100% correct. ABS was introduced on BMWs 25 years ago. What we now take for granted (4 channel ABS) took a couple more years to be implemented. It's called evolution of a good dea into a better idea.

In the late 1980's (5 years after introducing ABS on stret cars), even Motorsport and Teves struggled with the racing ABS system, until they hit the proper set-up. Let's be reminded that the ABS requirements for a street cars are not the same as for a racecar. Therefore, when using a street-developped ABS system on a tracked e30 (let's not forget either that street tires, R compounds and slicks don't behave the same way), the results might not be optimum. ;-)

Agreed - there are a LOT more variables at play in modern ABS systems than ten or twenty years ago. A friend of mine used to be an engineer at Roush Engineering and tried to get the Bosch engineering team to take a look at the ABS system on a fleet of cars they had built for the Bondurant Driving School that had some ABS "issues" when used with big R compounds. The Bosch engineering manager said "We can bring the test equipment and team out and tweak the system... for seven figures". He tried to explain to me just a small sampling of the variables that are utilized in a modern ABS system and my brain went "TILT". These are complex systems nowadays and yes, even they can reach a threshold outside of their parameters and "freak out".

I suspect the older E30 ABS system were much more crude and can be "freaked out" with a big change in grip levels or the like - and when an ABS system goes berserk they can "shut off all the brakes", as Lee warned about, slow cycle, or even lock the brakes. Its happened to me before on cars with a LOT more grip than stock, but as I explained in my previous post it took a lot of bad things happening at once to go into this "ICE MODE", where the brakes either stopped working or locked.

[etxxz]

I have pump deleted, e36 m3 front brakes, ti rear brakes, e36 m3 master. Stops great, can lock in dry at low speeds but have never done it without trying. Wet it will lock at most sane speeds if you jab the pedal but no problem driving normally, haven't had to make any panic stops in wet and I don't know if I'd want to try tracking it in wet.

similar setup. works terrible without have a brake bias valve. Add one on your FRONT line and transfer some power to the rear its a night and day difference. Real braking power.

Been tracking my car w/o ABS in its current state (s52 e36 m3 5-lug) for over two years. I'm very careful, violent and precise on my braking. I've yet to flatspot an r-comp tire roadracing. Drifting its a different story, i flatspot front tires right and left and i can say that ABS can surely help in that scenario. I WILL (try atleast) to make my ABS work again... atleast so i can decide what works best or not. I'm sure the computer will outbreak me in the long run.

[Luis325]

been without mine for 6+ years. Only one issue... Customer drove my car one day and locked up a tire, gave me a flatspot. Last time anyone gets to drive my car. Big brakes and no abs will do that to ya though.

lol!!!!!