how much for a cage??

[flyingbrick]

I talked to my local speed shop and they said 2000$ for it if the car is compleatly stripped out...if not...3000$

what do you think??

also i am :? about using a seat without a roll cage.... can i just use a roll bar?? I really hate my slippery leather seats...

[DBurke]

I'd guess 2500-3k for custom welded, painted, and installed. Removing the interior is a cinch and you can get all the tar out with fewer contortions.
You didn't say what kind of seat you had. If its a shell type seat (Sparco Evo) it probably doesn't work too well with your stock seatbelt.
Here is the deal with seats, cages, harnesses.
If you have no roll over protection: Stock belt PERIOD, any sport seat should be fine.
If you have roll over protection: Any seat, stock/sport/race with harness is fine.
DO NOT put a harness in your car if there isn't some sort of rollover protection.
Bolt in rollbars for e30s are available from:

https://www.vsr1.com

ioportracing (autopower)
kirk racing
safety devices

SD, Kirk and IOPORT both have readily available bolt in cages they aren't as cool as custom but they have kept plenty of people safe.
Don't buy a bolt in and weld it. If you are going to do that go custom.

[Bavarian3]

Our Henna M3 cage was built by a local race shop, that mainly did drag racers, but built two other BMW cages for SCCA and BMWCCA.

The cage cost around $2k when all said and done. I removed the interior my self, it's not a pain to do it, just a lot of time....

We are using 6 point harnesses with correct hardware. Some people just slap some small spacers and incorrect bolts on their cars... That's always safe..

There are two different types of cages though... Chrome Molly and I forgot the other name. Chrome Molly is lighter and more expensive, the other is heavier and less expensive. Either way, your still getting the correct protection, we at least I hope.

There are MANY cage designs out there... Everyone has their own opinion about it.

If your going to mess around with safety, make sure you do it 100% right.

[modifiede30]

I've been doing a lot of research on this, as I'm about to put one into my car. Hopefully in 2 phases. First a hoop bar in the back, next a full cage welded to the hoop. All of the work woud be done by the same shop.

In general, weld in cages are better, since they offer much more in terms of body stiffening. Bolt in also don't normally fit as well since they are made to account for all of the variations in a body's measurements. As a result, they tend to sit further from the pillars, etc.

Most custom shops will have difficulty installing a cage appropriately if the seat that's going to be used isn't in the car when its installed.

Pricing varies dramatically. TMS is between $3k and $3800. Bolt in cages range from $700-$1099. I've priced a couple local shops for weld-in cages, and they run between $2400 and about $3500.

Safety Devices are better made than those sold by I/O Port, and they apparently fit much tighter. However, Safety Devices are not SCCA legal since the rear hoop section does not have a cross-brace within the hoop, it extends from the hoop to the rear support mounted to wheel well.

The rear hoop section alone is likely to run me about $850 installed, with another $1400 for the front once its welded in.

Good luck.

[Mtriple]

There are alot of good suggestions here regarding a cage. I just had a full cage done by a local guy here in Minneapolis that specializes in cage and chassis fabrication. I paid a total of $1100 for the complete setup. This even included "boxing" out the rear towers and a removable cross brace that runs from the main vertical hoop just behind the driver's head, down to the passenger kick panel. I stripped and prepped the car and I will be responsible for painting as well. I will post some pics when I get a chance...

[Mtriple]

Well, I promised some pics so here you are.

[shahe]

nice cage, i like it except the rear mounting points. it might have been better if they meet at the shock tower, and not at that horizontal brace.

to answer the first question, just get an autopower bar with a sparco evo.

[schnitzer teil-jäger]

looks like a blunt cage. So I will not ask the same questions as before about the legallity per class rules or the triangulation. But I will offer the cage will fail local tech as shown.
w

[Mtriple]

looks like a blunt cage. So I will not ask the same questions as before about the legallity per class rules or the triangulation. But I will offer the cage will fail local tech as shown.
w

I'm curious as to why you think the cage will fail tech???? This cage, along with blunt's, was built by David Raye Engineering in Minneapolis. He has numerous SCCA club cars running in the area with his cages.

Please elaborate...

[schnitzer teil-jäger]

I am over critical, i guess. I forget to remind my self that by 330 you probably will run in mod class and that gets more leeway.
Please remember this is just my opinion. I tried to ask blunt about this on the other board and he was well, Blunt himself. Here is what I was currious about. This is based on spece30/bmwcca stock & Prep/SccaIT classes they are all similar. I asked because of building a spece30 car myself and was just currious.
1. 15.5.7 Diagonal Brace
At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One
end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop
above the driver™s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver™s-side corner. The other
end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver™s
head (passenger floor). Your diagnal is horizontal. the diagnal you have is cut and welded offset.
2. 15.5.11 Rear Braces
The main hoop must have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be
attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6)
inches below the top. The braces must not contain any bends. There must be at
least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces.
The main hoop rear braces shall be installed to form no more than a one hundred five
(105) degree angle or no less than a seventy (75) degree angle with the main hoop
when viewed from the top. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock
mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance
with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkheads provided
the bulkhead is sealed around the cage braces. Your rear attatchment points are not on the chassis but onto a bar, See next rule
3. 15.5.13 Mounting Points
The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor of the car in six, seven, or eight points. The
cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to
the firewall or front fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to
plates. Each required cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360 degree weld to the
mounting plate, except as specified in Section 15.5.14.B. There shall be only one (1)
mounting iopointlB per plate. This point is defined as where the ihrequired tubelu mounts.
All additional tubes mounted to that plate must be mounted as close to the required
tube as possible [Ref: (15.5.14.B)]. From the pics your rear downtubes and the diagnal that is removable doesn't meet this
4. 15.5.14 Mounting Plates
Each mounting plate shall be no greater than 100 square inches and no greater than
12 inches or less than 2 inches on a side. Welded mounting plates shall be at least
0.080-inch thick. Plates may extend onto vertical sections of the structure. Any
mounting plate may be multi-angled, but shall not exceed 100 square inches total
including vertical sections. Each mounting plate should have an area of not less than
nine (9) square inches. Not sure where your rear boxed section fits on this
5. 15.5.14.B Tube / Mounting Plate Specifications
Any number of tubes may attach to a plate so long as they are touching each other at
the plate. There may be a small gap between tubes to allow welding 360 degrees
around each tube. If there is no gap between the tubes, they must be welded around
the base as much as possible to form a single figure-eight weld, AND the tubes must
be welded to each other two (2) inches up from the base plate. check this also,
6. 15.5.17 Additional Reinforcement
Any number of additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage
provided that they are installed strictly for safety and do not violate CCR Section
#15.5.2 Intent. This rule does not permit reinforcements in classes with spec cages.
All required bars must be made of the same material and meet with at least the
minimum specifications for size and thickness. Not sure if this gives your "gusset" bars a problem.
7. 15.5.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but
without fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing
thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll cage is:
Up to 1500 lbs.
1.375lm x 0.095lm DOM/Alloy/Seamless
1501 - 2200 lbs.
1.500ll x 0.095ll DOM/Alloy/Seamless
(No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages being certified after April 30 th ,
2003)
2201 - 3000 lbs.
1.500li x 0.120li DOM/Alloy/Seamless
1.750ll x 0.095ll DOM/Alloy/Seamless
(No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages being certified after April 30 th , 2003) I hope that is just a glare on the tubes and not a seam.


I also asked why the tubes did not meet together and were strung out effectively lessening the strength and trianglulation. The door bar for an example. The main hoop has all the contact points spread out also.

NOT TRYING TO DISRESPECT YOUR CAGE AT ALL, I JUST WANTED SOME ANSWERS INCASE THERE WAS SOMETHING I MISSED. Like "these door bars do not significantly reduce torsional rigidity while allowing a crumple zone on longitudinal impacts that does not significantly effect driver safety." ( I know crumple zones and drivers compartment are not meant to be in the same sentence) .

Below is a pic of a cage with the contact points as close as possible, the gusset bars the same material, but no diagnal bar.

I really hope I am wrong about the rear mounts and diagnal brace failing tech.
wes
ps. once again not criticizing I know you didn't design it and I am not a pro either. Just trying to learn. And if these are legit problems Blunt should have shared with you instead of being a blunthead.

[UNHCLL]

Well, I promised some pics so here you are.

The X in the hoop is bad, they should all meet at one point

The straight pipes on each side of the X going through the rear wall are pointless and added weight

That front horizontal bar is WAY to dangerous. In an accident god forbid you or your knees hit that.
Passenger side intrussion is insufficient imho

All the bars should meet at one point on the hoop above the drivers head, not 4 differnt pipes sandwiched together


I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU OR YOUR CAGE! I am just pointing out the faults with the design for others to LEARN from.

FWIW: The cage builder had some good ideas, just very poorly implimented.

[trent]

Well, I promised some pics so here you are.

Was the guy trying to build a jungle gym for his kids to play in or a cage in a race car? That entire thing is overdone and a waste of time.

[Low Level E30]

Well, I promised some pics so here you are.

Was the guy trying to build a jungle gym for his kids to play in or a cage in a race car? That entire thing is overdone and a waste of time.

Uh oh - Trent's trying to make friends again ;)

[Mtriple]

Trent, I've always admired your car and you rule! Very insightful comments!!

schnitzer and UNHCLL, I appreciate your comments and I dont take them as an attack at all. Those are some very good points and I am by NO MEANS an expert on this, so I really do appreciate the comments.

The guy that built the cage has done numerous club cars in our region. A co-worker of mine is a long time member of the SCCA who is active in club racing and is a tech inspector every year at the Ojibwe SCCA Pro Rally in northern Minnesota. He had nothing but good things to say about the company that did the cage. So, I will take these comments with a grain of salt and pass them on to him to see what he thinks.

[schnitzer teil-jäger]

You are a much better sport than blunt was. I brought the same questions to him and he gave an attitude. if there is a problem he probably could have saved you any trouble.
w