Mechanical Grip

[joshh]

The "right" tire is more important that the widest tire possible. Look at Mike Simanyi, 2010 SM National Champion and 2011 Runner-Up. He *could* run any size / width tire he wants but he runs 285/30/18. When autocrossing, making the car wider is a determent to speed at which you can run through the course. Balance is more important than overall width and driving the car is far and above the most important factor.

There is only one "right" tire right now...the Hoosier. There's a reason he runs a 285? Because it's the widest tire he can get on the car without adding taller gearing/more weight. It's a huge tire.
Making the "car" wider in and of itself doesn't mean a thing. Never heard anyone worry about this over caring about the width of the tire.
Balance? I have no idea what you mean by that. You want the widest tire you can legally fit on the car as long as it doesn't add too much weight or gearing. You will never see a guy beat other guy by using a smaller tire (width) (driver for driver)....and there's a reason for that. One for one (same driver), it doesn't matter what you do to the car, the tire is always the limiting factor. Adjusting the car only helps the tire get to it's best grip. Once you're there you're only going to get so much out of the tire (driver for driver of course). Wider=more grip=adapt.

[m_dudey]

I'll be in Stockton on the weekend before that, what are you running?

I run an e36 m3. I used to run an e30 m3 though.

[Jean]

Was it a red e30m3 ?

[L8 apexr]

There is only one "right" tire right now...the Hoosier. There's a reason he runs a 285? Because it's the widest tire he can get on the car without adding taller gearing/more weight. It's a huge tire.
Making the "car" wider in and of itself doesn't mean a thing. Never heard anyone worry about this over caring about the width of the tire.
Balance? I have no idea what you mean by that. You want the widest tire you can legally fit on the car as long as it doesn't add too much weight or gearing. You will never see a guy beat other guy by using a smaller tire (width) (driver for driver)....and there's a reason for that. One for one (same driver), it doesn't matter what you do to the car, the tire is always the limiting factor. Adjusting the car only helps the tire get to it's best grip. Once you're there you're only going to get so much out of the tire (driver for driver of course). Wider=more grip=adapt.

Making the car wider does actually mean quite alot,how many autox course have you seen with no slaloms?.The wider the car the slower it'll be thru the slalom all else being equal.I've run events where the nearly the entire course was one slalom after another-it sucked but it happens.

[joshh]

Making the car wider does actually mean quite alot,how many autox course have you seen with no slaloms?.The wider the car the slower it'll be thru the slalom all else being equal.I've run events where the nearly the entire course was one slalom after another-it sucked but it happens.

It doesn't when you're adding an additional 4" or so of Hoosier. You compensate and win.
Let's assume someone would be able to run a perfect slalom (two runs being identical respectively). The same car, same driver, One tire is 7" wide the other 9" wide. Both Hoosiers. 40 total cones long. You add 2" to each side of the car in additional width. The car only has to travel an additional 160" (about the length of the car or less) through the length of the slalom being approximately 2000 feet of total slalom length. You're easily going to make up that 160" and more with a 2" wider tire. Specially because that 80" is sideways (what the tire does very well).
It's what they do at Nationals and they keep getting faster and faster.
You don't have to agree but it keeps being proven over and over. And I'm a believer.

[CrazyB]

I'll be in Stockton on the weekend before that, what are you running?

I will be at the Marina on the 14th also.

[L8 apexr]

It doesn't when you're adding an additional 4" or so of Hoosier. You compensate and win.
Let's assume someone would be able to run a perfect slalom (two runs being identical respectively). The same car, same driver, One tire is 7" wide the other 9" wide. Both Hoosiers. 40 total cones long. You add 2" to each side of the car in additional width. The car only has to travel an additional 160" (about the length of the car or less) through the length of the slalom being approximately 2000 feet of total slalom length. You're easily going to make up that 160" and more with a 2" wider tire. Specially because that 80" is sideways (what the tire does very well).
It's what they do at Nationals and they keep getting faster and faster.
You don't have to agree but it keeps being proven over and over. And I'm a believer.

Most cars like e30,civics etc etc that cram the 275 on generally add more than 2" per side relative to the oem track width.I don't dissagree that wider is in most case better but you are essentially saying its always better so I thought I'd make a couple of points.
When going wider you not only affect the track width but also the scrub radius,you also have an impact on the motion ratios and effectively soften the wheel rate compared to the narrower track.The wide tire also requires the set-up to be much more precise to keep all of the tire in contact with the ground,a narrow tire is far more forgiving in this respect.In other words yes wider is going to have more potencial-if you adjust the car to work with them.You never "compensate and win",you retune the car to work properly and win.
On a side note if a wider track is better than why are the fastest autox cars on the planet(a-mod) narrower than stock class cars in general?.They have a clean sheet(as did I when I designed and built mine)to work from and yet they aren't 8 feet wide.Slaloms do actually matter is why.
Also hoosier isn't the only fast tire,have a look at Avon-if they ever get their shit together here and form proper dealer networks to buy them hoosier won't be the tire to have.Not everyone can afford the hoosiers VERY short usefull lifespan,you shouldn't have to buy a new set every 3rd event to still be fast.

[joshh]

Most cars like e30,civics etc etc that cram the 275 on generally add more than 2" per side relative to the oem track width.I don't dissagree that wider is in most case better but you are essentially saying its always better so I thought I'd make a couple of points.
When going wider you not only affect the track width but also the scrub radius,you also have an impact on the motion ratios and effectively soften the wheel rate compared to the narrower track.The wide tire also requires the set-up to be much more precise to keep all of the tire in contact with the ground,a narrow tire is far more forgiving in this respect.In other words yes wider is going to have more potencial-if you adjust the car to work with them.You never "compensate and win",you retune the car to work properly and win.
On a side note if a wider track is better than why are the fastest autox cars on the planet(a-mod) narrower than stock class cars in general?.They have a clean sheet(as did I when I designed and built mine)to work from and yet they aren't 8 feet wide.Slaloms do actually matter is why.
Also hoosier isn't the only fast tire,have a look at Avon-if they ever get their shit together here and form proper dealer networks to buy them hoosier won't be the tire to have.Not everyone can afford the hoosiers VERY short usefull lifespan,you shouldn't have to buy a new set every 3rd event to still be fast.

Not true. The Integra which I owned fits a 225 under the fenders at 8.8" wide. The 275 35 15 is 10.1 wide. Which requires flares. 1.3" difference. It's very similar for the Honda EF chassis. You put 225's on instead of the 275's....you're going to shoot yourself in the foot, no question about it.
No I didn't not say it is always the case. A-mod cars and the like are a whole different ball game. Considering we are talking about a street car modified to be an autocross car, I thought that was obvious. 600lb cars don't need 10" wide tires most of the time. Because there are far more factors to add in.

Yes you do compensate and win. You put a wider tire on the car you need to learn to drive the car with wider tires. Not only is the car slightly wider it's going to respond differently. The alignment and settings are another obvious point....of course you make changes that give your tires what they need to give you the best contact patch possible.

If you want to win, you buy the Hoosier...period. Avons are fast, but not the fastest tire....or you'd see people winning with them more. While i agree with you on cost, that doesn't factor in when you want to win. You just buy the best possible.

I never said a wider track was better. Not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth.

[L8 apexr]

Joshh it says your from Portland-your obvious love affair with hoosiers has me thinking your originally from Indiana:)

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth,you said yourself that making the car wider doesn't mean a thing so...?

On this form theres a recent thread about the guy with the M3 swapped e30 running 275's,the offset has the wheels/tires outside the body by about 3" per side.Compared to the stock track(which is what the suspension geometry is designed around)that means he's about 5" per side wider.Thats is the typical set-up I see running the wide rubber and not the 1" ish you point to.
You still didn't seem to get my point about a-mod,doesn't matter if the car is 600lbs or 3000lbs wider is slower thru the slaloms and if it truly didn't matter as you believe than a-mod guys would build wider cars period.
Anyways I'm done,wider tires are usually better I agree,a wider track promotes less weight transfer but thats about the only advantage.

Peace brother.;)

[joshh]

Joshh it says your from Portland-your obvious love affair with hoosiers has me thinking your originally from Indiana:)

I didn't think I was putting words in your mouth,you said yourself that making the car wider doesn't mean a thing so...?

On this form theres a recent thread about the guy with the M3 swapped e30 running 275's,the offset has the wheels/tires outside the body by about 3" per side.Compared to the stock track(which is what the suspension geometry is designed around)that means he's about 5" per side wider.Thats is the typical set-up I see running the wide rubber and not the 1" ish you point to.
You still didn't seem to get my point about a-mod,doesn't matter if the car is 600lbs or 3000lbs wider is slower thru the slaloms and if it truly didn't matter as you believe than a-mod guys would build wider cars period.
Anyways I'm done,wider tires are usually better I agree,a wider track promotes less weight transfer but thats about the only advantage.

Peace brother.;)

It has nothing to do with what I like (I don't run Hoosiers). It has to do with the fact Nationals drivers use the best tire out there and that happens to be the Hoosier currently.

http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/15171_Results%20book%20file.pdf

Now I see what your point is....you want to argue about things just for arguments sake.
You pointed out Hondas specifically and you were wrong. I owned the car and had the tires and wheels on the car.
If you want to talk about E30's you are also wrong. You can easily fit the same 225 under the fenders of the E30...so explain to me how adding 1.3 (A 275 Hoosier over a 225) or so of tire is going to make the E30 5" wider on each side?

Alex S that runs an E30 at nations was running a 285 tire. It still isn't 5" wider than the 225 Hoosier. The 285 has a tread of 10.9...how do you get 5" wider from that considering you can fit the 8.8" 225 under the fenders? Regardless of all that, why do you think he's running a 285 in the first place?

I'm not talking about A-mod cars.....

Again, you're assuming I'm promoting a wider car. If you weren't so busy just trying to make some sort of logical argument against me, you'd see that the width is secondary to grip. You don't have to agree. But stop arguing something that I didn't say.

[L8 apexr]

Like I said,peace brother.

[joshh]

Like I said,peace brother.

[L8 apexr]

I have no clue what that means.

[Jean]

Comon guys, let's keep this thread civil and adult like :)

[joshh]

I have no clue what that means.

It means I'm done arguing in someone else's thread.