Slow Progression Towards Racing, Vet My Next Step?

[Earendil]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I could use some of your sage advice. I am attempting to make my car more stable and fun for HPDE days, and after affording myself a considerable number of them this upcoming season, I find myself with the money and the willingness to upgrade the car. The upgrade path is towards PRO-3, half because it provides a reasonable target for upgrading, and because it'd be awesome to someday race with them. Someday is at least a year, if not two or three down the road.

In the interim I want to have fun on the track, not feel like a wasted money if I don't end up racing, while also not feeling like I wasted money if I do end up racing just because I took the slow path :)

So with that, I present to you my plan. Let me know what you think, in particular the green section, as that has the most inter-operable components, while also being the higher ticket items.


* triple dash "---" means I'll continue using whatever was in the previous column.

Here are a few of my thoughts on the mater:

• H&R Sports are easy enough to sell, and so are H&R race. I should be able to move to H&R Race, and then move away from H&R Race without losing a lot of money.
  
• Camber plates. I don't think I need them to save my tire or be "faster" right now, but I'm not sure. If I spend most of my tire time "performance" driving, and riving to the track, will that keep my tread ware pretty even? Bonus for being able to install them at the same time as the springs.
  
• Sways. I hear Bimmerworld has one of the best designs. I believe these will be plenty adequate for racing use, while not over powering the softer H&R springs. Thoughts?
  
• I'm thinking either Camber or sways, but not both based on their price. I don't daily this car in the least, but i need to drive 30 miles to the track (thus why I won't go full race stiff springs right now). Thoughts on one vs the other?

Feel free to jump on other information in the graph, but the "future" list is far out, and most of the bushing stuff will only apply when they bushings need replacing, or if I get around to cleaning up the spare rear subframe sitting in my garage.

Cheers!

[Emre]

Don't waste your time with the H&R springs. Go straight to TMS J-Stock springs. Since you already have Bilstein Sport dampers, send them to Bilstein and have them revalved to "Firehawk" spec.

As for camber plates, you absolutely need them. No question. Without them, you'll be destroying your front tires (so there's no money to be saved by skipping them).

[Earendil]

Don't waste your time with the H&R springs. Go straight to TMS J-Stock springs. Since you already have Bilstein Sport dampers, send them to Bilstein and have them revalved to "Firehawk" spec.

As for camber plates, you absolutely need them. No question. Without them, you'll be destroying your front tires (so there's no money to be saved by skipping them).

So my reason for not going straight to J_Stock was because I didn't think they were remotely street able. I still drive this car on weekends "for fun" and have to drive it 30 miles to the track. I don't want to hate my car if I never end up racing it. Or perhaps once we're talking pothole slaps the spine will hate H&R Race just as much as J-Stock?

I currently don't eat tires with H&R Sport and my impression was that H&R Race aren't any lower? Is there a dynamic of stiffer springs that would cause additional inside tire ware?

Given my budget then, you would suggest J-Stock + Camber Plates, and run stock sways?

Thank you so very much for all the feedback!

[jeffmn8]

I daily drove my car while it was on J-Stock's for nearly a year. Were they comfortable? No. Were they tolerable? Definitely. Obviously personal preference, but I'm sure they'd be fine to drive occasionally and to the track and back.

[jlevie]

If you are thinking of ultimately competing in Pro-3, don't put anything on the car that isn't Pro-3 legal. Even if that means sacrificing some performance in the meantime. It will be a waste of money.

[seatown88]

I don't know what your track experience is so I apologize if you are already a track addict, but as a suggestion I would have to echo what jlevie stated, while also suggesting making sure all the maintenance is done on the car before throwing parts at it. Especially with the high mileage you have without knowing the service history of the car. Once the car is gone over, get some high performance, maybe even race brake pads and get out on track! After getting out on track a couple of times will help to establish whether it is something you want to continue to sink some money in or not.

Once you have decided to continue on with PRO3 as your goal, I would start modifying the car with the PRO3 rule book as your guideline. I would personally start with bushing, brake, and engine mods. This will allow for a fun HPDE car while maintaining some street-ability and is somewhat easy to revert back to stock or just leave a lone if you decide not to race with the car. Poly mounts will be just fine for race use, I use the UHWM mounts that I sell. I would leave the springs and dampers alone until you make the final plunge into a race car(roll-cage) because your going to want to run coilovers.

If you have the time this summer, come out to one of our PRO3 races. I would personally love to have you come out and crew for me if you are interested. Crewing for me usually entails kicking back, relaxing, and eating some sandwiches haha. There may be minor tweaks to the car here and there but mostly just hanging out. It's a great way to get your introduction to the PRO3 and entire ICSCC racing community.

[Earendil]

I daily drove my car while it was on J-Stock's for nearly a year. Were they comfortable? No. Were they tolerable? Definitely. Obviously personal preference, but I'm sure they'd be fine to drive occasionally and to the track and back.

I've been around the board long enough to know that "comfortable spring rates" are highly subjective, I just hadn't heard anyone extend that range all the way up to 1000lbs before. Thanks for the input!

If you are thinking of ultimately competing in Pro-3, don't put anything on the car that isn't Pro-3 legal. Even if that means sacrificing some performance in the meantime. It will be a waste of money.

Great advice. I believe everything I'm considering falls into being PRO-3 legal, as their suspension is a bit more open than SpecE30.

I don't know what your track experience is so I apologize if you are already a track addict, but as a suggestion I would have to echo what jlevie stated, while also suggesting making sure all the maintenance is done on the car before throwing parts at it. Especially with the high mileage you have without knowing the service history of the car. Once the car is gone over, get some high performance, maybe even race brake pads and get out on track! After getting out on track a couple of times will help to establish whether it is something you want to continue to sink some money in or not.

I agree 100%. I could have gone into more detail, but didn't want to distract from my main question too much. Let me expound now :)
I've owned the car for 6 years, and done every bit of maintenance on it in that time not because I'm a mechanic by a long shot, but because I find it therapeutic after sitting in front of computers all day :)

Two years ago the rear subframe came down, and all bushings were replaced except for the diff. At that time the brake calipers were rebuilt, and brake lines replaced. Track oriented pads were also put on at that time. Last year the transmission was dropped and a new clutch put in, and this winter the oil pan was finally dropped. The underside of this car is well sorted :)
It's only after all that (and lots else) that I feel like I can start spending money on things like springs.

Poly mounts will be just fine for race use, I use the UHWM mounts that I sell. I would leave the springs and dampers alone until you make the final plunge into a race car(roll-cage) because your going to want to run coilovers.

Aren't there a good number of people not running coilovers? In any case, this is the reason I'd go with H&R Race for a season or two of HPDE. Easily sold for little financial loss, drop in part, easy to revert back if I don't like them. I also already have Bilsteins on the car, which according to the forums can be rebuild for significantly less than new ones. They were acquired used though, so if they come off the car and aren't acting properly, something will need to be done.

If you have the time this summer, come out to one of our PRO3 races. I would personally love to have you come out and crew for me if you are interested. Crewing for me usually entails kicking back, relaxing, and eating some sandwiches haha. There may be minor tweaks to the car here and there but mostly just hanging out. It's a great way to get your introduction to the PRO3 and entire ICSCC racing community.

You sir, likely have a deal :D
I've only ever crewed once, for Eric Bloise, Tucker Sheppy, and a few others during the 25 hours of Thunderhill in 2011. Don't confuse me with a car guy though, as I'm really just an E30 guy. If it doesn't match an E30 (in particular my E30) I'm clueless ;-)

[djjerme]

Here's a path..

First and foremost, make sure the car is sound to begin with (electrical, brakes, drivetrain..) Do regular maintenance. If you don't this will bite you once you get to wheel-to-wheel.

Next, if you can stand them, just get some H&R races for the time being. These coupled with Bilsteins and camber plates will get you closer to a race suspension, but still maintain some streetablility. Also, this is the first year of NASA in the region, so you could set up your car once you get going to run both Spec E30 and PRO3.

Once you have this set up for a while, do yourself a HUGE favor and buy a AiM SOLO, and start working on your driver skills. A skilled driver can drive a slow car fast. Get as much help as you can from other more experienced drivers. Let them know your game plan. Do this before you really start spending money on your car..

From this point, the upgrades are up to you. Last year I ran stock eta sway bars, with homemade coilovers using used Bilstein's. I rocked HT10 brake pads with no brake ducting, and I was still able to turn 1:31's at PIR with the chicane. Letting another faster driver run my car, he was in the high 1:30's..

Trust me, there will be plenty of options to spend money on later in your build.

The point of no return is your cage. Once you hit this point, it's all or nothing. Once you have the cage done, then start filling in the small bits like Poly or solid..etc.

For wheels, go with something cheap, you are going to damage wheels. It happens. I run cheap Konig Rewinds using their SE30 racer discount, others have their own opinions.

Also, the R888's are being sunseted because they sucked so bad, so don't waste your money at this time (I ran a shaved set for ONE race, and went back to my worn out RA1's...)

If you haven't already, get on the PRO3 mail list.

[Earendil]

Here's a path..

So Jeremy, is this how I get a long response out of you? ;-)

First and foremost, make sure the car is sound to begin with (electrical, brakes, drivetrain..) Do regular maintenance. If you don't this will bite you once you get to wheel-to-wheel.

Check. All Electrical gremlins destroyed by removing all non-essential electrical components. Car is running nicely, and I'll be doing a smoke test soon for the fun of it.

Next, if you can stand them, just get some H&R races for the time being. These coupled with Bilsteins and camber plates will get you closer to a race suspension, but still maintain some streetablility. Also, this is the first year of NASA in the region, so you could set up your car once you get going to run both Spec E30 and PRO3.

Oh yeah, I forgot about NASA joining the area. Shows how little I'm actually in the race scene :)

Once you have this set up for a while, do yourself a HUGE favor and buy a AiM SOLO, and start working on your driver skills. A skilled driver can drive a slow car fast. Get as much help as you can from other more experienced drivers. Let them know your game plan. Do this before you really start spending money on your car..

Half the reason I want to get closer to a race configuration is so that my track experience is consistent, and bumping up to full race isn't like driving a completely different car, just a moderately different car :)
I'll have to look into whether something like an AiM is allowed in a club HPDE environment. I know the general rule of thumb is no timing. I haven't yet decided I'm for sure going to be racing though, but I certainly have the track bug. Wherever I decide to put the next $500-$1000 should increase safety or fun, and not be wasted if I move to PRO-3. And besides the cage/seat/belts combo, I'm out of safety ideas.

From this point, the upgrades are up to you. Last year I ran stock eta sway bars, with homemade coilovers using used Bilstein's. I rocked HT10 brake pads with no brake ducting, and I was still able to turn 1:31's at PIR with the chicane. Letting another faster driver run my car, he was in the high 1:30's..
The point of no return is your cage. Once you hit this point, it's all or nothing. Once you have the cage done, then start filling in the small bits like Poly or solid..etc.

That's the kind of thing I'd be completely okay with. I'd much rather beat a few guys with better setups, than have the best setup and take first. It's how I role :)

If I recall, you ran an awesome cone setup last year at one point. I think you installed it midway back on the chassis?

For wheels, go with something cheap, you are going to damage wheels. It happens. I run cheap Konig Rewinds using their SE30 racer discount, others have their own opinions.

Also, the R888's are being sunseted because they sucked so bad, so don't waste your money at this time (I ran a shaved set for ONE race, and went back to my worn out RA1's...)

I've had the Team Dynamics for two years now, love them :)

I'm not close enough to want to run racing slicks. I know other people slap them on for HPDE days, but I'm quite content with just a summer tire.

If you haven't already, get on the PRO3 mail list.

I've been stocking that list for almost 2 years now. The first time I meet half the crew I'm going to have to try hard not to act like I know all of them already.

[djjerme]

The cone setup is purely optional. Apparently, it earns you points with the PA system announcer..

[Earendil]

So for the sake of argument, let's assume I go with H&R Race, for two reasons:
1. Low cost to upgrade, low loss to pass on once I decide what my final race setup should be. They can be had for $300, and the market right now has the resell set around $200. A $100 dollar loss over a year or two sounds financially safe :)
2. Drop in part. No need or ability to adjust (helps the noob).

So, assuming that, what do people think of the Bimmerworld sways? Would they be beneficial or detrimental when matched with H&R Race? I'm thinking this is a common enough SpecE30 setup? For those running much stiffer setups, do you think the Bimmerworld Sways would continue to be a good match with something like J-Stock?

And AFAIK Camber Plates have no strong superintendency with the other suspension parts, and whether I pick them up is purely a financial one, yes?

[Emre]

H&R Race springs suck. Plain and simple. The only people who run them do so because they are forced to by class rules. No one who has a choice uses them.

TMS J-Stock springs are basically a copy of BMW's own "Gruppe-N" springs, which is what was run by the vast majority of E30 M3 racers in the late '80s and early '90s. They were on early DTM cars, IMSA Firehawk cars, and many many more. They work well, give the car neutral handling, and don't slam it to the ground.

Despite what you've heard, they're not any worse than H&R Race springs on the street. And you don't even need custom-valved shocks; they'll work just fine with off-the-shelf Bilstein Sports.

So for the sake of argument, let's assume I go with H&R Race, for two reasons:
1. Low cost to upgrade, low loss to pass on once I decide what my final race setup should be. They can be had for $300, and the market right now has the resell set around $200. A $100 dollar loss over a year or two sounds financially safe :)

The real loss is the time and energy you'll waste swapping springs twice. Get the good stuff right from the beginning.

...do you think the Bimmerworld Sways would continue to be a good match with something like J-Stock?

If you're eventually going to get J-Stock/Gruppe-N springs, then they won't be a perfect match. While you can use just about any sways you like, the J-Stock spring/shock combo really comes to life with the (enormous) Ireland Engineering swaybar set.

[Emre]

I hope I'm not giving away the secrets of the Guten Parts race prep team, but the magic combination for a track-driven E30 is this:

• Turner Motorsport J-Stock Springs;
• Bilstein Sport dampers revalved to Firehawk spec;
• Ireland Engineering swaybar and mount set.

I had that set-up on my old E30 318is track toy. My car had a stock M20B25 engine, 4.10:1 LSD, a Massive Brakes "Sport" BBK, and a full interior (except for a/c delete and no rear seat). The suspension was as described above, with standard 15x7" TDR ProRace 1.2 wheels:



With that set-up, I was pulling faster lap times around Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant than all the Spec E30's and a pair of stripped, M50-powered, prepared-class BMW CCA club racers. They were all on R-comps (Toyo RA-1's) and I was on street tires (Hankook R-S3's).

It was the same thing at Mosport and Watkins Glen. The other E30's couldn't touch me, even the ones with M50 swaps. I'm pretty much the only guy in the Instructor group who used to run his E30 on street tires, so most of those guys had a big tire advantage over me. Most of them also had a weight advantage. If I was passing them, it was down to suspension and track knowledge (Tremblant and Mosport are my home tracks).

[!kid]

And you don't even need custom-valved shocks; they'll work just fine with off-the-shelf Bilstein Sports.

So your saying J-stock springs are okay to be used with billy sports?

Given the springs rates of j-stock springs, I would think the billy sports would not last long. Is this because the j-stock springs are progressive?

[Earendil]

So your saying J-stock springs are okay to be used with billy sports?

Given the springs rates of j-stock springs, I would think the billy sports would not last long. Is this because the j-stock springs are progressive?

I'd just think they wouldn't be helpful. With springs that stiff the shocks sure wouldn't move around that much :)