Turner J Stock Springs

[ed94r]

Who has a set and is ready to move on? I'd like to buy.

Moderators: I figure I'd have the best luck here in this subforum. My WTB in the general forum did not bare fruit. Delete if you see fit.

Ed

[BlackbirdM3]

I don't have a set for sale, but I will say that they are the springs to go with. The H&R race springs were WAY undersprung for my M3, it bottomed over everything. The J stocks are perfect, very little body roll, and not harsh either. Firm, yes, but not harsh. (Not nearly as harsh as bottoming the race springs over every single imperfection in the road.) You will need dampers that are revalved to handle the spring rates however. My revalved Koni sports are right at the edge of being under damped for the spring rates. (640 front 1080 rear)

Will

[ed94r]

I've been running (fresh) Turner J Stock re-valved Bilsteins on H&R Race for a few years. The car works well currently with the H&R race, but they are on the soft side of optimal for the track I visit most (VIR). I'm looking to explore the No Rear Bar option, and the J stock spring rates are more conducive to that than the H&R Race.

I should have pulled the trigger on the springs when they were available...regrets. I want to avoid the coil over route if I can find J stock springs, which are like hen's teeth to find.

Ed

[e30_302]

The front springs are 5", you can get about whatever you want from a spring manufacturer. Run the rears you've got now in coil-bind and there you go :) or modify the rear spring perch to work with a normal spring.

[MacBudd541]

I don't have a set for sale, but I will say that they are the springs to go with. The H&R race springs were WAY undersprung for my M3, it bottomed over everything. The J stocks are perfect, very little body roll, and not harsh either. Firm, yes, but not harsh. (Not nearly as harsh as bottoming the race springs over every single imperfection in the road.) You will need dampers that are revalved to handle the spring rates however. My revalved Koni sports are right at the edge of being under damped for the spring rates. (640 front 1080 rear)

Will

I have been on J-stocks for almost 10 years and I love them. As will said, firm but not harsh and very little body roll.

[Joeyz31]

I'm in the same boat, looking for some too. The rear is easy. There are plenty of options that bolt right on, with no mods. I.E. The ground control rear set up. The front is what is tricky, If you are like me and don't want to deal with the whole strut tube cutting etc...
All we need to do to replicate the front, is to figure out what length spring we need. As stated above, it's a 5" barrel spring (tons of people make custom) and the rate, well that's around 600 or 700lbs if I'm remembering correctly. That's easy enough to do. Then the rear, you can run an adapter and any off the shelf 2.5" coilovers Spring.

[autox320]

Hey Ed

As a noob here on r3v I'll step and ask if you have adjusted the roll center for the front? Refer to the roll center thread.

The car won't roll over as much and won't need as much spring/bar. Also keeps from having to run so much aggressive static camber in the front cause the camber curve is corrected/improved. When the front of the E30/McPherson is lowered, the roll center goes well below the ground level. This small geometry change is a huge oversight for most. Some can't do anything about it due to rules, but in HPDE we can correct this for much improved handling.

The E36 race arms bimmerworld sells has roll center sleeves that install above the outer joint. Would need matching tie rod sleeves of equal height to eliminate bump steer. There are probably other options of sleeves and mods for a standard E30.

I run 2009 bilstein sports over HR race. A main issue with the combo is the bump stops. It's known by quite a few that once the springs get shorter you must trim the stops far enough to allow travel. My fronts are one knuckle long, and removed the rears. If this isn't done you'll ride the stops a lot and most will equate this to bottoming out. Shorter stack height front strut tops help here also, but the stops must still be trimmed very short. I've vorshlag plates on mine. They are some of the shortest stack height fully adjustable plates available.

Even with all that said I'm also exploring options this winter to just get another set of billy sports. Mine are not wore out, but have some hard miles on them. Maybe change to linear 2.5" coil over springs in close to the same ratio rates. A linear 600 spring in the rear should be perfect IMO and just over a HR race spring (570).


For those that don't have the M3 struts(spacers are easy), there are other options. The E36 race arms from bimmerworld are one.
Another is a kit like SLRspeed sells. http://slrspeed.myshopify.com/collec...quick-steering

[ed94r]

Hey Ed

As a noob here on r3v I'll step and ask if you have adjusted the roll center for the front? Refer to the roll center thread.

The car won't roll over as much and won't need as much spring/bar. Also keeps from having to run so much aggressive static camber in the front cause the camber curve is corrected/improved. When the front of the E30/McPherson is lowered, the roll center goes well below the ground level. This small geometry change is a huge oversight for most. Some can't do anything about it due to rules, but in HPDE we can correct this for much improved handling.

The E36 race arms bimmerworld sells has roll center sleeves that install above the outer joint. Would need matching tie rod sleeves of equal height to eliminate bump steer. There are probably other options of sleeves and mods for a standard E30.

I run 2009 bilstein sports over HR race. A main issue with the combo is the bump stops. It's known by quite a few that once the springs get shorter you must trim the stops far enough to allow travel. My fronts are one knuckle long, and removed the rears. If this isn't done you'll ride the stops a lot and most will equate this to bottoming out. Shorter stack height front strut tops help here also, but the stops must still be trimmed very short. I've vorshlag plates on mine. They are some of the shortest stack height fully adjustable plates available.

Even with all that said I'm also exploring options this winter to just get another set of billy sports. Mine are not wore out, but have some hard miles on them. Maybe change to linear 2.5" coil over springs in close to the same ratio rates. A linear 600 spring in the rear should be perfect IMO and just over a HR race spring (570).


For those that don't have the M3 struts(spacers are easy), there are other options. The E36 race arms from bimmerworld are one.
Another is a kit like SLRspeed sells. http://slrspeed.myshopify.com/collec...quick-steering

Thanks for the insight Jody...Let me digest the implications.

In the meanwhile, do you think that bottoming out of the bumpstops is designed into the J stock shock package? I know in the autocross world that bump stops are specifically engineered to achieve intended results, especially in stock class solo. I wonder if the original intent of the J stock package is to have the car on the bumpstops and the specific durometer of the bumpstop is an engineered part of the package? Just thinking out loud.

To add: The Bilstein J Stock shocks are significantly more firm that sport bilsteins. I do not have a shock dyno to verify whether it's in compression or rebound, but the J stock shocks are solid rods compared to the sport bilsteins.

Oh, I found that Eibach sells 5.00 springs with rates from 200 to 1600 for front applications, but the freelength is 9.50. Would anyone know the freelength of H&R race fronts?

Ed

[autox320]

Thanks for the insight Jody...Let me digest the implications.

In the meanwhile, do you think that bottoming out of the bumpstops is designed into the J stock shock package? I know in the autocross world that bump stops are specifically engineered to achieve intended results, especially in stock class solo. I wonder if the original intent of the J stock package is to have the car on the bumpstops and the specific durometer of the bumpstop is an engineered part of the package? Just thinking out loud.

To add: The Bilstein J Stock shocks are significantly more firm that sport bilsteins. I do not have a shock dyno to verify whether it's in compression or rebound, but the J stock shocks are solid rods compared to the sport bilsteins.

Oh, I found that Eibach sells 5.00 springs with rates from 200 to 1600 for front applications, but the freelength is 9.50. Would anyone know the freelength of H&R race fronts?

Ed

I've never opened Jstock bilsteins to know what valve package they use or how long the bump stops are. Yes the J-stock setup is valved for more spring. In short I don't believe the bumpstop theory for engineering it as part of the suspension. They are there just so your not smacking metal to metal IMO. More important than the bump stop is overall actual travel of the suspension. Some time ago bilstein started installing even longer stops in the front struts. Some were measured over 3.5" long!!!!

Another example of this scenario is we have 2 1991 318i/is. Both bilstein sports one on E30M3 springs and the other on HR sport springs. The M3 spring one handled slightly better. So once took apart the HR sprung one for some work I looked at the bumpstops. They were smashed up pretty good with most of the bumpstop shattered/cracked. Why? Because it was riding the stops a lot. Cut down the stops to a single knuckle and it now handles better than the M3 sprung car.
Then later took apart the struts to inpsect the M3 spring setup. The first knuckle of the stops were smashed and in pieces inside the housing.

If want to check your stops it's very easy when doing bilstein struts. Just take something with an edge like a screwdriver and knock the silver bottom plate off. Out comes the top of the strut with the bumpstop on it. Trim to liking. Usually there is several inches of extra material on there almost like they just use a one size fits all. For sport struts on any E30 I'd think it would benefit to trim these back.

Autocross. If in doubt your bottoming just do the old zip tie test. Put a zip tie around the strut shaft and go drive. If it's smacking the mount there's your answer.

[BlackbirdM3]

I was bottoming my Race springs out in corners autoXing. That was with corrected roll centers (that took some effort as well. I'd start with Vorshlag camber plates since they use the stock spring hats in the design and are the right height for roll center.) When I started with the H&Rs and my revalved Koni sports, it was always on the stops, the Bilstein sports were only slightly better and were usually on the stops. J Stock and Konis, flawless, rarely on the stops (takes a good impact to get there.) I'd say this points toward needing a spring in the 620 lb range. (What the J stocks are) I also run spacers in the rear along with the tallest spring pads I can find on both ends. The car looks about stock ride height, but with a far higher spring rate. It works, and works very very well.

Here are a few shots showing the body roll or lack thereof.





Will

[M-technik-3]

Nice RK's. I have two sets one on my 88 M3 the other in a box awaiting installation on a car. Sorry not quite ready to sell the second set yet.



Red one is on J stocks and the white one was on Bilstein Nurburgring coil overs.

[autox320]

Will did you trim the bumpstops?
Car looks like it does sit a bit high. Autox is different than track days in that your low speed full tilt on sticky tires, low slip and full twist on the frame.

Higher speeds the suspension sets and there is slip of the tires even when loaded. There are high speed areas where you can get on bumpstops and bottom out ex: VIR full uphill esses. Another would be entering hog pen. Both places I'd never want to ride a bump stop through :D High speed anywhere when one end of the car spring rate goes to infinite will increase the pucker factor.

I've no spring pads with the HR race setup, trimmed stops and no bottoming ever. Just wondering what the difference is that caused bottoming on your car. If no trimmed stops that's what I'd point my finger at.

[autox320]

Only shot's I've of last two events. I'd guess somewhere 60-70mph? (I never look at the speedo on track) Just that it was at least 1/2 of 3rd gear. One pic of assisted kerb jumping oak tree turn at speed shows some weight jacking. Granted I do have some custom made braces. Front X brace, strut braces, and enforced trail arms, and a tunnel brace.

And a side shot shows how it looks under under power no turning.

[BlackbirdM3]

Will did you trim the bumpstops?
Car looks like it does sit a bit high. Autox is different than track days in that your low speed full tilt on sticky tires, low slip and full twist on the frame.

Higher speeds the suspension sets and there is slip of the tires even when loaded. There are high speed areas where you can get on bumpstops and bottom out ex: VIR full uphill esses. Another would be entering hog pen. Both places I'd never want to ride a bump stop through :D High speed anywhere when one end of the car spring rate goes to infinite will increase the pucker factor.

I've no spring pads with the HR race setup, trimmed stops and no bottoming ever. Just wondering what the difference is that caused bottoming on your car. If no trimmed stops that's what I'd point my finger at.

The race springs bottomed hard with the Konis, and bilsteins. I never did pull the Bilsteins apart to cut the bump stops. They bottomed only slightly less than the Konis. My take was because they had more compression damping. (they were under damped on the rebound side where as the Konis were good on the rebound but not enough compression damping.)

I've never run sticky tires on the car, only treadwear 200 street tires. The car was so soft it would have been scary on track. It would have wallowed around like a drunk hippo. With the J stocks, that is all gone. Stock rear swaybar, 25mm front.

The front is as low is it will go without venturing into bad roll center area. The control arms have about half a bubble (on a level) slope out to the wheels With the roll center spacers removed, its flat. With the very slight rake forward it puts the roll couple in a good spot as well. I had a friend who builds professional race cars (SCCA level) for a living drive it and his comment was "Don't touch a thing. This is perfect. I wish I could get the later models of M3 to handle this well." To add to this, my girlfriend drove the car in her first ever autoX and finished mid field overall with it. Everyone was impressed with her finish since it was her first time, and she wasn't used to driving the car. (has a VW GTI.)

Will