Brake Duct Hose Adapter

[FredK]

I aim for Les. Sometimes I hit Wes, Ken, or completely by accident, Dave, who just happened to be in the exactly wrong place at just the right time.

t

[iwantspeed]

nice find thomas! i found these at home depot also.

they have worked great for the last 4 years

you just need to shave the little nipples so you attach the hose

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=333947&highlight=brake

[TobyB]

If it were me, I would save some time and money and change my braking methods.

this is a Pro3 car.

Less is already more. I aim for Les. Sometimes I hit Wes, Ken, or completely by accident, Dave, who just happened to be in the exactly wrong place at just the right time.

End of my story was the roundy- round inlets, instead of the stock inlet. They're a bit bigger, but not massively.

I am surprised that

Most Spec E30 racers don't even use brake cooling ducts

since close racing really disrupts airflow, and thus, cooling. I do know that I've never spotted a Pro3 car WITHOUT them. Doesn't mean that there aren't a few, but I haven't seen 'em.

t

[Fooshe]

I lied, it was the color- change version.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=4974

It was turning grey at the rotor edge. Rotors were showing surface scarring, and the pad surface was eroding.
My initial problem was an odd 87 eta 'anti something' valve that was stuck, giving too much rear bias, then just bad brake feel by lap 6.
I dragged Hank Moore over at one point, and he looked at the pads, rotors
and ducting, pointed a toe at the inlets, and said, 'Looks like heat to me', and then I put the paint on. I hadn't expected heat to be the problem, either.

I AM running the Mason hub adaptors, which are only 2" at the wheel, necked up to 3" tube.

PF7 all the way around, now, have been fine with the bigger roundy- round front ducts.

For reference, I have driven 3 of these cars in enduros AND sprints on the same tracks before, and had never
had brake problems before I built this car. So while I'm certainly guilty of over- slowing
the car, the others put up with it, this one didn't.

fwiw,
t

Wow! if it was grey, you are getting over 1250 degrees! Yep, standing the car on it's nose. You need something much more like the Reybestos ST-43 and ducting. If it were me, I would save some time and money and change my braking methods. Unless you are at speeds that a regular track would see, there is no way you should be that hot for an autocross. Also, the ducts won't cure the problem because the amount of air being pushed to the calipers is not that significant. Don't get me wrong, it will help, but there are more fixes needed here.

I see this routinely...people will shop and pour money into their cars putting BBK's on all kinds of go fast stuff, but talk with them about a driving coach and they look at you like a dog hearing something in the distance.

[Fooshe]

I have DTC-30 and HPS For fronts i could use also. I'll see what i have for rears.

Both of those are medium torque level pads and not, in my humble option, your best option. However, they will most likely work better than the set up you use now as their minimum operating temp and optimal temps are much, much lower. For Autocross, that's a good thing unless you are driving long courses with multiple high speed braking corners.

To really figure this out right, we really do need to know what your brake temps look like, see where you drive and consider your driving style. If we don't have all we need to figure that out, we use what we have.

Also, and most important, flush your brake system and replace the fluid with some Motul 600 RBF. Make sure to bleed the brakes for each event, too. That is very important.

As a baseline, I am going to stick with what I recommended. The one thing I do know is that if you overheat those, you are WAY to hard on your brakes, which means you are slow and need to more changes to the software rather than the hardware.

[TobyB]

Toby, what was the temp you used on your tempilaq?

I lied, it was the color- change version.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=4974

It was turning grey at the rotor edge. Rotors were showing surface scarring, and the pad surface was eroding.
My initial problem was an odd 87 eta 'anti something' valve that was stuck, giving too much rear bias, then just bad brake feel by lap 6.
I dragged Hank Moore over at one point, and he looked at the pads, rotors
and ducting, pointed a toe at the inlets, and said, 'Looks like heat to me', and then I put the paint on. I hadn't expected heat to be the problem, either.

I AM running the Mason hub adaptors, which are only 2" at the wheel, necked up to 3" tube.

PF7 all the way around, now, have been fine with the bigger roundy- round front ducts.

For reference, I have driven 3 of these cars in enduros AND sprints on the same tracks before, and had never
had brake problems before I built this car. So while I'm certainly guilty of over- slowing
the car, the others put up with it, this one didn't.

fwiw,
t

[GThomas]

Ok, that is good info. The DTC 60 & 70 set up is pretty aggressive, is not known for being rotor friendly and have pretty high optimal operating temps.

I am very interested in your brake temps because the more I think about it, I wonder if your pad choice is the problem. I suspect that you are not getting the pads hot enough for them to be as effective as they should be. I say this because the 60's don't start working well until about 700 degrees and the 70's at 800, if memory serves me right.

If you are a diehard Hawk brake pad user, perhaps the HP+ pads might work well for you. I would also look into Porterfield RS-4's, EBC Redstuff or Carbotech AX6 or Bobcats. Personally, I think the Carbotech AX6 might be just what the doctor ordered.

I have DTC-30 and HPS For fronts i could use also. I'll see what i have for rears.

[Fooshe]

Ok, that is good info. The DTC 60 & 70 set up is pretty aggressive, is not known for being rotor friendly and have pretty high optimal operating temps.

I am very interested in your brake temps because the more I think about it, I wonder if your pad choice is the problem. I suspect that you are not getting the pads hot enough for them to be as effective as they should be. I say this because the 60's don't start working well until about 700 degrees and the 70's at 800, if memory serves me right.

If you are a diehard Hawk brake pad user, perhaps the HP+ pads might work well for you. I would also look into Porterfield RS-4's, EBC Redstuff or Carbotech AX6 or Bobcats. Personally, I think the Carbotech AX6 might be just what the doctor ordered.

[GThomas]

I'm running DTC 60s up front on UUC BBK with Garagisitic back plate adapters. DTC 70's in the rear with stock calipers. All of my plastic ducting had broken off from autocross. The s52 certainly makes the car quicker than spec e30's but I'm not claiming to have a ton of data to back this up or to have years upon years of racing experience. I would imagine my breaking skills are not up to expert level but I learn more every time. I'll be at Watkins Glen next week and will take temps of my rotors and calipers for reference.

[Fooshe]

Wow...interesting TobyB.

The DTC line is pretty good. Not sure I like the 10's in front, or did you have the 60's in front?

So, I wonder if your cars are simply a lot heavier. Also, you standing the car on it's nose in the braking zone? Don't get me wrong, I can over-cook my brakes if I work them to death, too. Track lay out a factor?

I just don't understand why your temps are getting so high. Toby, what was the temp you used on your tempilaq?

[TobyB]

Like Jeremy, I found that the stock brake inlets were too small, dtc 10, dtc 60, pf7, all overheated pads, and rotors, as proved by tempilaq

Larger inlets and 3" ducting, problems solved. 160k mile stock engine.

The e30 brake is working hard at the track.

t

[Fooshe]

I believe everything you say, but I'm guessing it has to do with the S52 in his car.
Cooling would be beneficial regardless, though, even if not entirely necessary.

Thanks AK...my goal is only to help with my experiences and years of comparing notes with other racers. Yes, the S52 is getting him to speed more quickly that an M20 in a normal E30 would, however, that probably is only about 10%-20% of the problem he is having. The Spec E30 car I drive is 2400 lbs with a 20 overbore on it making 160hp at the wheels. They are probably pretty close in performance with a slight nod going to his car.

Djjerme actually makes a great point and said something that I was thinking about, but didn't make note of. Cold brakes, specifically pads that must operate at high temps to be effective, can be worse than most people think. Couple that with braking more like people do on the street and I can see how the braking doesn't work for him.

Enduro's don't always require brake cooling...it depends on the pads and the track configuration. I did the 25 hours at Thunderhill in my Spec E30 and only used 1 set of pads for the entire race...no air ducting on the car and they worked perfectly. Now one thing we have not introduced intothe conversation is if you add a slotted rotor to the mix. The gas escape also helps with heat dissipation so if you consider a higher quality rotor (stoptech) that is slotted...blah, blah, blah. I'm sure you see where I am going with this.

At the end of the day, my point is that one size does not fit all. It takes some R & D and talking with those that have gone down this road before to see what works best for your car and for the tracks you drive.

Now don't get me started on Brake/Pad release...probably the most important thing to going faster that most people don't understand or consider. The release characteristic of the pad, coupled with the driver's braking method(s), can not only decrease wear and temps, but increase speed.

[ak-]

Ok, so here is why I asked...Most Spec E30 racers don't even use brake cooling ducts and they are arguably using their brakes at their maximum in sprint races. Some Pro3 drivers don't use them either. Now if the track configuration requires it (Like Thermal in Southern California) I can understand using them.

I suggested a pad change because most people who track their cars don't really understand which pad to use or which will be the most effective for what they do.

I suggested a braking style change because just about every track day student I have been in the right seat with over slows the car and is WAAAY to hard on their brakes from trying to carry too much speed into the corner with ultra late braking...which is the opposite of what they should be doing. Late braking is for passing, not obtaining your best lap time. Brake earlier and stronger up front and taper off as you enter the corner so your minimum speed at the apex is higher. Remember, slow in - fast out...exit speed is king.

I've been racing a long time and have tested this theory....each time I question it, I have failed to prove that saying wrong.

I believe everything you say, but I'm guessing it has to do with the S52 in his car.
Cooling would be beneficial regardless, though, even if not entirely necessary.

[djjerme]

I ran the first few seasons without any kind of ducting to my brakes. And that was on Hawk HT10/DTC60's.

When I started doing more of the 1 hour enduros and using my car for Lucky Dog races, we decided to add the cooling.

Best thing to do is actually to get data from the heat built up in the brake assembly and see if you do need cooling. Pads do have an optimum operating heat range, and too cold can be almost as bad as overheating.

I'd say get some of the heat sensitive paint and see what the calipers or pads are seeing.. and you're right, different tracks require different brake use and can be easier or harder on brake systems.


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[Fooshe]

Ok, so here is why I asked...Most Spec E30 racers don't even use brake cooling ducts and they are arguably using their brakes at their maximum in sprint races. Some Pro3 drivers don't use them either. Now if the track configuration requires it (Like Thermal in Southern California) I can understand using them.

I suggested a pad change because most people who track their cars don't really understand which pad to use or which will be the most effective for what they do.

I suggested a braking style change because just about every track day student I have been in the right seat with over slows the car and is WAAAY to hard on their brakes from trying to carry too much speed into the corner with ultra late braking...which is the opposite of what they should be doing. Late braking is for passing, not obtaining your best lap time. Brake earlier and stronger up front and taper off as you enter the corner so your minimum speed at the apex is higher. Remember, slow in - fast out...exit speed is king.

I've been racing a long time and have tested this theory....each time I question it, I have failed to prove that saying wrong.