driving/racing school

[Dave]

It isn't an aversion to letting an E30 by, it is an aversion to letting anyone by or as a result of the driver being so task saturated that he/she isn't watching their mirrors. Of course if there's an instructor in the car they are also responsible.

Assuming that there are three or more passing zones, there no reason that a train should last more than one lap. The slow car should be very aggressive in pointing cars by and try to get as many pointed by as possible in each passing zone. A common problem is when the slower car won't make it easy by shedding speed for the passes. Even in a short passing zone you can get more that one car by with a generous reduction in speed. If a lift won't get it done, use the brakes.

Yeah, and around here, that is where CCA is often better than NASA. Everyone from Group D up to A has an instructor with CCA. Few people get signed off, even race licensed folks.

NASA - Only HPDE1 has an instructor the whole time. HPDE2 runs with Group 1, but solo (though instructors are available). HPDE3 is solo, with some instructors available, though few take advantage of that.

More often than not, the trains are the result of guys running solo who maybe ought not to be yet. I always like to have someone in the right seat at least the first session or two of the weekend. They help me shake my rust off and improve the situational awareness.

[jlevie]

NASA DE-1 & DE-2 are always assigned instructors, supposedly NASA wide. DE-2 students can be signed off solo, but if the rules are followed they won't be until they can actually handle that. My experience is only with NASA/SE and they seem to be pretty conservative with respect to signing off solo or recommending promotion to DE-3. When I drove in DE-3 I always found an instructor to take a ride with me sometime during the weekend and I know a lot of others that also followed that practice. Maybe NASA/MA is a bit different?

I don't know why, but my pet peeve in any DE (NASA, BMW CCA, PCA, etc) group was that the driver of the car I'm passing seldom understands that when your hand goes out the window to give a point by that your right foot MUST come off the gas as soon as the passing car has made the move to pass. That is preached over and over in the classroom sessions, but seldom seems to make it to the track. When you drive an underpowered car the last thing you need is a drag race to the next corner!

There's really no excuse for trains in a NASA DE-3 group since open passing with a point by is allowed. And I can't remember ever having that problem when running in DE-3 here in the South East.

[Dave]

There must be some fluidity between regions.

DE2 her in OH/IN (now Great Lakes) is essentially solo in group 1. Its usually not a problem to get an instructor in DE3 if you want one. Like I said, I always like to have one at least the first session or two. And I have grabbed one to ride with me when I felt like the turn(s) or skill I was trying to hone at that time could use a second more experienced set of eyes/ears/butt/etc.

The picture Lance had above was from an event 2-1/2 years ago when NASA here combined 2 and 3, not 1 and 2. And its at Putnam, which is a pretty tight little track. My experience since then is that things are a little better since then.

Group 3 here starts out with limited passing zones, and if everyone seems to be playing well, they open it up to more and more passing zones as the weekend progresses. BUT, if there are too many cases of stupid, they tighten it back up.

[155///MPH]

I guess because there's nothing to hit other than corn, NASA feels that 70 cars on track at once is doable.

-Charlie

My very first race at VIR Full had 90 cars, everything from 996 GT3's to poor little SE30's. I loved every minute of it.

I bet it would get really frustrating in a DE though when you inevitably get stuck behind the guy who thought it would be a good idea to bring the rental Sebring on track.....


If you're tired of trains, build a racecar. If you're involved in a train then, you're just slow!

[Charlie]

My very first race at VIR Full had 90 cars, everything from 996 GT3's to poor little SE30's. I loved every minute of it.

I bet it would get really frustrating in a DE though when you inevitably get stuck behind the guy who thought it would be a good idea to bring the rental Sebring on track.....


If you're tired of trains, build a racecar. If you're involved in a train then, you're just slow!

Vir full is just a touch bigger than Putnam. As for "build a racecar", that is the end goal.

-Charlie

[rwh11385]

Dave likes to track.

[Dave]

dave likes gau sex.

What is a gau?

Heetard is drunk . . .







































as usual.

[Elephant]

Yeah, and around here, that is where CCA is often better than NASA. Everyone from Group D up to A has an instructor with CCA. Few people get signed off, even race licensed folks.

Which events are these? I guess the only Bluegrass event I run is at Putnam in June or July but that last sentence is fairly inaccurate.

[Dave]

That was my experience with Hoosier and more so, Buckeye. The A and B Group people seemed to have instructors with them most all of the time. Maybe they were getting signed off or could go solo, but it seemed few of them did.

:shrug:

Anyway, my point is, NASA seems to cut 'em loose a lot faster. CCA seems to be more conservative in its approach as far as instruction is concerned.

[Elephant]

I don't know why, but my pet peeve in any DE (NASA, BMW CCA, PCA, etc) group was that the driver of the car I'm passing seldom understands that when your hand goes out the window to give a point by that your right foot MUST come off the gas as soon as the passing car has made the move to pass. That is preached over and over in the classroom sessions, but seldom seems to make it to the track. When you drive an underpowered car the last thing you need is a drag race to the next corner!

There's really no excuse for trains in a NASA DE-3 group since open passing with a point by is allowed. And I can't remember ever having that problem when running in DE-3 here in the South East.

Frankly there is no excuse ever for there to be trains for very long. Instructors are responsible for making sure students allow passing when it's appropriate, PERIOD. Instructors should be informing students to allows passing and then have them lift as they are pointing. Certainly there are cases where a little hesitation on either the passer or passee causes a pass to not happen but generally it should not be an issue. In my experience I think sometimes instructors get tunnel vision similar to the students!

Cheers.

[Elephant]

That was my experience with Hoosier and more so, Buckeye. The A and B Group people seemed to have instructors with them most all of the time. Maybe they were getting signed off or could go solo, but it seemed few of them did.

:shrug:

Anyway, my point is, NASA seems to cut 'em loose a lot faster. CCA seems to be more conservative in its approach as far as instruction is concerned.

Huh, ok. I guess I have to admin I really only do 1-2 DE's per year, Rite's-O-Spring and then Bluegrass...both at Putnam. ROS is very weather dependant but neither event, IME, seems to have been overly tight about signing people off. Certainly it depends on the students but I've always signed off A/B students, never D, and I don't recall any C.

I've never done a NASA DE and wouldn't really want to, always hear these nasty stories (such as Hyperfest).

Cheers.

[Dave]

Gotcha.

Yeah, and imagine your D Group interspersed with the C group people, and all the C group running WITHOUT instructors. That is how OH/IN is running HPDE1/2 right now. Not ideal IMHO, but I am not an instructor.

[rwh11385]

Jack, Dave was going with the observation that a lot of CCA people want to see participants instructing, or have an instructor themselves. There's some anal retentive people in Hoosier and I wouldn't be surprised if a NASA racer was given grief if signed up and wanted no instructor.

What's fun is HPDE3 which I don't remember doing yet, but ran with them with group pairing. Guys who get to play with the fastest run group on some sessions, but still stuck with the young guns who got their training wheels and instructors off as well. HPDE 4 is real boy stuff and has opening passing IIRC with a point-by suggested, and you run with instructors and people doing time trials... so it's a circus from what I can see.

[155///MPH]

Your preference should depend on your experience level and your development needs as a driver. I loved coming up through the CCA for my first 8-10 schools. I was working towards a comp. license and racing. The CCA gets a little too conservative once you get up to the higher classes or skill levels. There even seems to be some animosity at times from the local CCA towards racers (mostly from the organizers and DE only crowd as there are a lot of racer/instructors down here)

By the time I started racing I really wish that I had been doing HPDE 4 with NASA for the year previous. You're right that it is a little cavalier at times, but that is what you need if you plan on going racing. That was probably the scariest thing about my comp. school experience, that I had zero open passing experience going into it.

NASA and BMWCCA offer two great options for learning. Where you fit in best will depend on you.

JP

[Elephant]

Jack, Dave was going with the observation that a lot of CCA people want to see participants instructing, or have an instructor themselves. There's some anal retentive people in Hoosier and I wouldn't be surprised if a NASA racer was given grief if signed up and wanted no instructor.

What's fun is HPDE3 which I don't remember doing yet, but ran with them with group pairing. Guys who get to play with the fastest run group on some sessions, but still stuck with the young guns who got their training wheels and instructors off as well. HPDE 4 is real boy stuff and has opening passing IIRC with a point-by suggested, and you run with instructors and people doing time trials... so it's a circus from what I can see.

Gotcha. Agreed Hoosier Chapter is more conservative than others probably but IME things run pretty well. But I know a lot of chapter members (I am a Hoosier Chapter member and I do more with them than my local chapter) so I suppose I have a different perspective.

Yup, NASA DE's are not interesting to me at all.